Episode 39: Transcript
"As much as I ran from my childhood, there gets to be another chapter." - with Amanda Magee
Magda Pecsenye Zarin: I have some big, big news for you.
Doug French: Oh! “Big, big” is always good.
Magda: Big, big news. As of yesterday, Thomas's FAFSA has moved out of review!
Doug: And so now we get to see if the actual award that he gets is close to the estimate that the schools gave us.
Magda: Right. I have a lot more faith in the actual schools, and we already got an aid package from one of the schools that he applied to because they cleverly made a form of their own that kind of paralleled the FAFSA, and you filled that out, because you're the primary parent. And they were able to give us an award based on that. The schools have been the heroes in all of this in a lot of ways. Like, not all schools, but some of the schools.
Doug: Well, they're heroes in the sense that they're preserving their own existence.
Magda: Well, yeah, they're preserving their own existence. But I mean, it's a lot of underpaid people doing different kinds and more work than they usually do every year at this time. So that's the big news.
Doug: Well, and the big news I saw was both of the two final schools, one of which he will choose to go to, each of them has a male-female ratio of 1 to 2.
Magda: I don't think that's unusual. There are a lot more women in college than men right now.
Doug: Right. I mean, most schools are like hovering around just over half.
Magda: Most schools are?
Doug: Like 55-45. A lot of them are, yeah. But this one, women are firmly in the 60s.
Magda: Well, he's applying to more small liberal arts colleges. I wonder if the numbers are different at bigger schools.
Doug: Yeah, well, I'm very happy with the two choices he has. And I think wherever he chooses, he's going to, he has a good chance of enjoying it and staying through to the end, I hope.
Magda: I hope so. It's funny, like we had such different expectations last time and now we're like, hey, I hope he just stays in.
Doug: Well, that's the nature of college in general, right? Like even during March Madness, everyone's already talking about as soon as the team's out, the portal starts. I don't understand why people get so excited about kids committing to a school because no one's committed to anything.
Magda: Yeah. I mean, I've been talking to people about the fact that one of the complications, I think, of our kids looking for colleges is that you and I each loved our undergrad experiences and very strongly identify still with our undergraduate colleges, are very involved in the alumni activities, are active volunteers.
Doug: Right. I'm still tithing.
Magda: Without intending to, I think we have probably given our kids the message that where you choose to go is really important because that's going to be who your friends are for the rest of your life and you're going to be affiliated with this association for your whole life. And that's just not true. There are plenty of people who go to school, have fun for four years or if it takes them five, whatever, and then just don't really, it's not really a part of their life.
Doug: I'm wondering if the whole idea of even making friends when you get to school is different.
Magda: All the kids just close their doors when they're in their dorm rooms now. I was like, what? Closing the door of your room when I was in undergrad was the universal signal for “I’m studying.”
Doug: Well, or sex.
Magda: Well, yeah, but I mean, if it was sex, you would put like a scrunchie on the door handle, or a sock.
Doug: I didn't have any scrunchies. Yeah, I was low on scrunchies.
Magda: Normal life was leaving your door open, you know?
Doug: Right.
Magda: I remember joking around with my mom. This was, I don't know, 20 years ago when my great-great-aunt Hazel was in assisted living. My mom and I were joking around that when it was time for us to go, we would be happy to go to assisted living because it was like a college dorm. Everybody was your same age. You'd leave your door open. You'd just go down to the dining hall for your meals. It was college only without the pressure of classes.
Doug: And you close your door when you're having sex. Brief sidebar, I was listening to a recent Conan O'Brien podcast and a listener phoned in who works at The Villages.
Magda: Okay.
Doug: And so what came about was a whole discussion about the loofah system.
Magda: Oh, God. Okay, you've talked about this before. You are preternaturally interested in this loofah system at the village.
Doug: Oh, absolutely. I just love how wide the spectrum is. Like, they have teal loofahs.
Magda: Really?
Doug: There are so many different options, so many different intentions you want to communicate that you have to go out into like the tertiary color wheel.
Magda: What does a Teal loofah communicate?
Doug: I don't even know. It's like, “kind of curious,” “did this once,” and, you know, “likes root beer afterwards.” I don't know. I mean, it's all online somewhere. But the funny thing is, I mean, I'd seen the system before. Conan had not. And so the funny part was listening to him because he does have a sense of propriety in his reactions. It was hilarious.
Magda: I think it's interesting that people assume that people in retirement aren't having sex, right? Like, that's a weird assumption.
Doug: The STDs, man. It's like old people and koalas.
Magda: Old people and koalas?
Doug: Yeah, it's like in Australia, there's a contagion of koala chlamydia. That's the appropriate response. Did you know the story of John Oliver and Russell Crowe?
Magda: Did one of them give the other one chlamydia?
Doug: That would be a better story. Oh no, the story. Well, I'll tell this in as brief an area as possible before we get to Amanda. But for Last Week Tonight, John Oliver and his staff bought an item from Russell Crowe's divorce fire sale. He was trying to raise cash for his divorce.
Magda: Oh, okay.
Doug: So they bought his leather jockstrap from Cinderella Man and made a whole bit about it. And so Russell Crowe retaliated by using some of the money to create the John Oliver Chlamydia Treatment Unit at an Australian zoo.
Magda: That's horrible.
Doug: So, wow, how did we get here?
Magda: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's because you're fascinated with the loofahs at The Villages.
Doug: I am fascinated with the loofahs at The Villages.
Magda: Yeah, you really are.
Doug: Well, I feel we've done Amanda a disservice to have begun her intro with this discussion, but I'm so glad she came on. She'd been posting on social about how hard it is to say goodbye to her first daughter who went off to college.
Magda: Okay.
Doug: Because I know for all the people we've talked to who seem to have gotten to a better place about it, she seemed really in the trenches about it, and I wanted to talk to her about what the difficulty was, and we found out.
Magda: Yeah.
Doug: And I did not expect what the answer would be. I mean, it tracks, unfortunately. But, you know, if you're having problems in your own family with your parents, that's gonna translate to the family you built as a bulwark against that. And when you see that starting to unravel because that's what families do when kids get old enough to go, that's gotta be hard.
Magda: One of the things I discovered when I was writing Ask Moxie for so long was that parents get really triggered and don't know why. You can try to talk yourself out of it, right? By saying like, “oh, this isn't a big deal. I don't know why I'm reacting like this.” I think almost always it's because whatever that thing was, when that thing happened to you as a kid, you weren't parented the way you needed to be through it. Realizing that is the only thing that can help you get through it so that you don't put it on your kids by flaring up and getting really angry at them when you're triggered by something. That is a big, big challenge of being a parent, I think, is to come to terms with the ways that you didn't get what you needed when you were a kid and then not either overreact to that by overcorrecting with your kids or let it take you under. And I think, you know, like knowing how she left home with her mom, like, of course, she's gonna feel loss in a big, big way when her daughter leaves, even though the situation wasn't the same at all.
Doug: Yeah, and I really don't think she realizes what she's been able to do. I mean, she's in it. She's there trying to set the example as a modern woman for her three daughters. But you're not aware of that when you're still focused on this period of grieving she's in. I mean, spoiler alert, she's paused her relationship with her mom. That might be the end of it. I mean, who knows how anything's going to turn out, but that's hard. And even though it was almost three years ago, I think she's maybe a little impatient with her recovery from that. And whenever you make a choice, whenever you're proactive in something, you're always going to just kind of look back and say, was it the right choice? But she was frank about her feelings and I've loved her writing for so long. It just, the source material for why she writes about what she writes about and how well she does it. It just makes all the more sense to her and puts me firmly in her corner that she can develop some sense of peace with it.
Magda: I think that actually probably makes it a little bit harder for her because all of her emotional eggs are in her family basket. You know what I mean?
Doug: Yeah.
Magda: Like if she had been divorced at some point or if her kids were not as receptive to the way she has created this family, it might have been a little more diffuse. And so the daughter going off to college might have been maybe not easier, but a little bit more expected. If somebody is thinking like, “How awful is my family? Should I cut off contact with them?” My question about that is the same thing that I ask people when they come and ask me if they should get divorced, right? And number one is like, I can't tell you if you should get divorced.
Doug: Yeah, exactly. Just nip that in the bud right away.
Magda: Right? The main question that I always ask is, “Do you feel like there's movement in this situation and relationship?” Do you feel like things are shifting, things are growing, things are changing and there's still the possibility of transformation in this? Because if the answer is yes, then maybe you do want to hang in and see what's happening. Although if you don't, if you're just done with it, that's okay too. But if there isn't any movement, if it's just stuck, why throw bad money after good? Like, that's the sunk cost fallacy. Doesn't hold water in finance, doesn't hold water in relationships either. And it sounds to me like Amanda's relationship with her parents was really, really, really, really stuck. And I am very proud of her, even though I just met her when we were recording, for having made the decision to save herself.
Doug: Of course, the real tragedy is she couldn't fulfill her childhood dream of being a divorced mom by the age of 26.
Magda: That was really funny.
Doug: Instead, she had to meet someone to build a partnership with for over half her life. So sad.
(Music fades in and out.)
Doug: What production are the kids in now?
Amanda Magee: We just finished Annie. And both of Sean's parents were there. Yeah, so this was Avery, my middle's last high school production. And what I saw with Briar and now with Avery is in the senior year, really on the back half of it, certain things become very important milestones that I hadn't anticipated.
Magda: Oh, wow.
Amanda: So she also had a wish list of people to come to the show. And my husband's father and his family live in Connecticut. And so there haven't been a lot of visits. And my mother-in-law and her wife also came to the show. And I think our wedding was maybe the only time we'd really been together in that way. Not that there was super tension, just sort of that run of the mill, this is awkward-ish. But the girls were just beaming. It was another reminder to me that I can't always know what is going to fill their sails. And I've gotten better recently at not assuming I know how to do that. But it is humbling when it comes from someone else and it wasn't anything that would have occurred to me. So even now, you say, I mean, Sean's parents broke up in his first year of life.
Doug: Yes. Is it possible that, just for the sake of discussion, was there a chance that your awareness of the history, could you have projected a little awkwardness where there wasn't any, because the kids didn't see it?
Amanda: I always project awkwardness. It's just a low-frequency hum around me. He for 16 years was an only child and for all intents and purposes he was an only child. Sean's brothers and sister were born when he was like 16 and 18. They were very big on Easter and Thanksgiving and birthdays and anniversaries and my family didn't have family gatherings, because it would be explosive. So the idea that on a holiday that I needed to kind of dress up and go and eat food that I didn't want to eat, I really hated that stuff. And so I think for Sean, it made it more pronounced that he wasn't involved in the other side of the family, which was a big Irish family. So yeah, I probably projected some, hmm, where the fuck have you been? But also grateful that you're here because you're making my daughters happy. But also, let's not try and pretend that we're all here to see one another. We're here for the girls, I guess.
Doug: Well, you've been together with Sean more than half your life, haven't you?
Amanda: Almost, because I remember he was with me on my 26th birthday. At some point, along the lines of watching Kate and Allie, I think that's what it was called.
Magda: Oh, my gosh.
Doug: That's a deep cut, yeah.
Magda: That was a callback to, wow, a long time ago.
Amanda: I always planned to divorce and have the children by myself, and they would be three boys, and I would have them by the time I was 26. I also, ZZ Tops, She's Got Legs, I had decided that I would wear like stilettos and jeans and that would be my kind of beautiful. So when I was with Sean on my 26th birthday, it was in Williamstown, Massachusetts, outside of Goodrich Hall where we did the cabaret. And I was like, but I'm not a mom and I'm not divorced. And it just sort of hung in the air like,
Doug: That was the goalpost you wanted to hit?
Amanda: Yes! I had really believed that was going to happen. So my feeling like I was washed up at 26 didn't have to do with appearance.
It had to do with like, this is foreshadowing. I thought I would be free of my parents in some way. I would have my own life and I would be done with the having of kids and I would be going on to the having of life.
Doug: Right. Well, the reason I brought that up is it seems like even though it's been 20-how-many years, it's still a work in progress in terms of the disparity of your family experiences and how those are coming together to find this unit that's lasted as long as it has.
Amanda: Yes. I think he and I, because our parents both divorced and because his mom's wedding was so beautiful. And we're like, thank you, because Sean's sadness had always been, she won't let me participate. He made her like an Indigo Girls mixtape to be like, I get it.
I love you. So I didn't see my mom because her relationship with my stepdad was volatile. So we agreed early on, even before we had kids, that like, hey, when this happens, we're still going to kiss in the kitchen or we're going to whatever it is. So figuring out like family traditions. You never know when that's going to come up. I wrote a blog post once about how the holiday meals would be scheduled for like one or two and please be there at 11. And I'm like, that's the whole day. And I have a background with an eating disorder. So these days that are just focused on food, I don't get them. I don't like them. I had traumatic ones growing up. So anyway, I wrote this thing that was just sort of like, could we not? And they read it and were like, people in the family are asking. And as a writer, I mean, you knew me, Doug. I think there were people who wrote about parenting and marriage as, you know, a dream come true and those who wrote it with a comedic edge.
And then there were the people who were really like harsh about stuff. I remember when, this would probably have been in about, let's say, 2015. It felt like a lot of the people I was reading were like, I've come to a crossroads and I can't write about my kids anymore. And it's their story. And I think it was around that time that I got an email at work one day and it was a comment from Briar on my blog.
Doug: Oh, dear.
Amanda: And she loved it. And over the years, they've Googled their names and they find old pictures that they hadn't seen. And I think for the most part, I don't think there's anything I ever wrote that they would be ashamed of or resentful of.
Doug: How old was she when she found this?
Amanda: I think she was in middle school.
Doug: See, that's got to be real. It's one thing if they're, you know, adultish. And it's another thing when she's in middle school and she stumbles upon this and you wonder how that middle school mind is going to absorb what this adult just wrote. Knowing this informs why I wanted to talk to you initially, which because of how the five of you are on social media, how united you are. And how you post, often tearfully, about what it's like to see the girls slowly kind of veer off and find their own ways. It strikes me that this family was a real objective. Is that fair to say? I think if you talked to Sean, he would be like, this was what she wanted. She had to work hard. What happened for me is that when I had Briar, I was pregnant with her, I was on the East Coast. My family was on the West Coast. I went to the hospital at like 2 or 3 in the morning, and as many first-time moms, you know, I had all these plans. I wasn't going to use drugs or whatever. And it was about 6.30 in the morning, and I was like, you know what? Let's go ahead and do some drugs. At like 7.04, and Briar was born like 40 minutes later, and I went home, and I just felt like a completely different person. I didn't feel like a C student. I didn't feel like I was living in anyone's shadow. And then, I don't know that our closeness, that I can take any credit for it. We started our business. We incorporated as an LLC in November of 2003. Briar was born September 2004. She was born and we just had to work. And, you know, Finley, to her credit, has been really good at finding a place for herself as the one who's going to be alone with us eventually. She is nonplussed if her sisters are both gone and she's with us. She's like, what should we do?
Doug: So Briar is in the city now?
Amanda: Yes.
Doug: In New York?
Amanda: Yep.
Doug: And Avery is going to be in college somewhere nearby, right? Is that the plan anyway?
Amanda: Yes. Yep.
Magda: Are you guys going through the college search thing right now?
Amanda: We did. Avery picked her favorite. Sean did more college tours than I did, which was neat. I've been sort of reflecting on how I monopolized some of the parenting stuff in the early years and not really giving him much space, but he loved the college tour thing. She already has scholarship offers. Her schools that she applied to are big.
She only has one that she really wants to go to and she hasn't heard from them yet.
Magda: It's a rough year because all of the applications are so delayed because of the whole FAFSA thing and it's just...
Amanda: Yep. Well, and I will say, add to that, that my company had a very rough last year. And so I need to find a FAFSA human being to be like, hi, my 23 taxes are going to look very different than 22. And now I'm going to have two kids in college. So could we map something out?
Doug: I've had some good experiences with people at the schools themselves, I have to say.
Amanda: Oh, really?
Magda: You'll never be able to talk to anyone at the FAFSA, but whatever school she ends up at, that's the people to talk to, the financial aid people.
Amanda: All right.
Magda: Because they're the ones who- And I think they all are very versed in this now because of the pandemic, because everybody who had, I mean, everybody, even people who are working for other people had like, everything was fine and then ka-chunk and then maybe started coming back and then ka-chunk. So like, I don't think it's an unusual story at all to be like radically different magnitudes of reporting from year to year at this point anymore.
Doug: And their lives are as disrupted by this as ours are. So in a way, we're kind of aligned against a common enemy.
Amanda: Right.
Doug: Many of the schools will say, look, please, we have our own ways to estimate what the offer might be. They want to accommodate people because colleges are in a rough spot too.
Amanda: Right.
Doug: Can you talk a bit about what it was like, I mean, sending Briar off, that was first. And, I mean, clearly you like to tell yourself you're going to get better at this when Ave goes and then when it's time for Finley to go and it's just you and Sean staring across the table at each other. What was that feeling like when Briar was headed south and this unit was growing out of itself?
Amanda: I never applied to college. I was an exchange student in Spain and when I got home, my mom said, “you've been accepted to the University of Oregon. Have fun.” So I missed this process and there was a part of me that felt really bad that Briar had to audition from her living room. She couldn't go on college tours. We couldn't get into the schools. So when her move-in day came, you know, being a theater major to go into this school that was all performance, it was just...Ridiculous explosions of personality. And I thought, how wonderful. But that school, the dorms are like 20 blocks from the school. And I was like, this is really weird. So she's going to go to class until 11 at night and walk back. But we took her out to dinner and we saw throngs of students walking together. So we're like, okay, did the city just fit her? And I missed her desperately in the first three months. Kind of like I was failing somehow, that she was so far out of a place that I could keep her safe. The lesson being I was never keeping her safe. But especially because she's in the city.
Doug: You may have been in a place where you could handle her going to Ithaca, but being in New York was a whole different issue.
Amanda: Yeah, but then as a woman, I have to acknowledge that there's not a place on Earth where she's safe. Like, I've been assaulted. It didn't happen in a city, you know, and it didn't happen when I was loaded. And in some ways, you might say that in a city, there are more people that might look after you.
Magda: I have always felt safer in New York City, in Mexico City, in really populated places than other places.
Amanda: Yeah. So but she left Post-Its all over the house. So I remember going into the pantry and getting like a box of vegetable broth out and it just said, “Mom, man, I miss your cooking.” And she just had them all over the house. And so we were all like, who's going to find one next? And like, I didn't think I would recover from it the first three months.
Doug: How did you get out of it? What changed?
Amanda: I think I realized how quickly behind her Avery was and that I couldn't apply everything to Briar and not acknowledge the passage that Avery's going through. I want them to be adults. I want them to have fully realized relationships and lives and ideas. I did have something happen the other day with Briar and her friend driving them back to the train station and they were talking about another friend of theirs, and eventually they asked me what I thought, and I didn’t hold back. I just told them exactly what I thought about this other person.
Remember the thing in the movie theaters, THX or whatever it was?
Doug: Oh, yeah.
Amanda: That's how they looked.
Doug: The Maxell ads, right?
Magda: The guy in the chair, he's blown backwards.
Amanda: Yeah. I was like, yeah, and I have tons more of that, but this is your thing and you guys deal with it. I had a lot of thoughts as she was going through her thing and she had very high expectations for the boy and there were certain times when I was like, I'm here if they want it. They can have it other times. I'm sure I'll blurt shit out.
Doug: And we'll publish the transcript of those words behind our paywall.
Amanda: Well, that's the mama bear.
Doug: That's the part that I've heard so much about and I know is in there because you talk so much about protecting them. And I think that weighs into another theme that I've always been curious about. A lot of men are building their fatherhood from scratch, and it sounds like you kind of built your motherhood from scratch, because you've got all this advice and all of these insights that you've built over time. Who did you learn that from?
Amanda: I think my writing was a way that I worked out trying to figure out. So my sister had a slightly different experience in that she had more activities, but I think some of that was because my mom was working more, so she wasn't there to be quite as hands-on. But she participated in a lot of activities, and I felt like I did sports and other stuff but I didn't really have anyone cheering me on. I think we could all agree on that. So I wanted to be present. I tried to prevent them from my pitfalls, but they found new ones. They're really skilled that way. I love social media. I love technology. But when you think about the fact that their generation never had to wait until the end of the day to talk to their parents. They never had to wait until the next day in school to see what people were talking about. There's no off. I worked hard for them to have strong character, strong will. But then along the way, as I was an employer, I had to be honest with my female employees and say, there are going to be times when we're going to have clients and it just has to be a guy who has to pitch the idea. And if you're not okay with that, I get it. But you just need to know if our goal is to get the ball across the goal line, this may be how we have to do it. And then I realized that I maybe wasn't being that pragmatic with the girls about, yes, you can wear what you want. But yes, also, there may be a response to that. I got Avery a shirt and it said, “I don't owe men shit” or something.
Doug: I think I've seen that shirt.
Amanda: I think she's had a man and a woman come up and say hateful things to her in the city.
Magda: Really?
Amanda: Yeah.
Magda: Wow.
Amanda: She also wore No Uterus, No Opinion, a sweatshirt into class one day, and the teacher used her to spark a debate. I was like, that was kind of crappy, but also you were wearing the shirt. So I try to let them know that, yes, we can have all this freedom and we can make these choices, but we still live in a society where any number of things might happen and you have to be prepared for that. Like, let's just talk about dresses, prom dresses. I looked like a sister wife, is what my daughters would say, at my Homecoming. It was like a Laura McClintock.
Magda: Oh, God.
Amanda: Yeah.
Magda: Gunne Sax.
Amanda: It went to that point at your leg that only makes you look like you have cankles, just like it was awful. And the dresses that are out there now are tiny. And so I've said to them, “If any part of an outfit makes you tug, then don't wear that. Have it be as low cut as you want or as short, but if you're pulling it down or whatever, size up.” Because some of these girls, they walk around and they're just so uncomfortable. And I'm like, was it worth it? Was it worth the one photo?
Magda: But they don't even look good in that photo because they're still uncomfortable!
Amanda: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Magda: Yeah.
Doug: The tug rule. It's a perfect rule.
Amanda: Right?
Doug: Well, and I ask this, too, because women are supposed to love motherhood from start to finish. They're supposed to be born excellent at it. There's expectations there that clearly you had to settle into in your own time, in your own rhythm. I think it's an inspirational story when you think you're kind of working by the seat of your pants, by your instinct.
Amanda: People aren't normally used to analyzing their own stories in this way. They just kind of do what they need to do and then it's done without even having to analyze why. Or they only analyze the parts that have the burrs and really hurt. I think what has surprised me are the times when people are really strident in their disapproval of things. So we talked a lot about pee in our house. And I developed this thing with the girls on road trips where I would be like, let’s go to the bathroom. No, I don’t have to. And I’d say, “You might have secret pee.” And lo and behold, they’d go, and they’d be like Secret pee! And they still say it today.
Doug: I love that that's your first instinct, by the way, after I asked that question. You went to the secret pee story.
Amanda: Well, my goal is low-key to have people around the world be like Amanda McGee. She instituted the Secret Pee thing and it just will help.
Doug: There's a rhyme there. There's song lyrics. I'm waiting for it. There's a sonnet. “Amanda McGee and the Secret Pee.” There you go. That's a children's book. Please promise me you'll write that.
Magda: Amanda McGee and the Secret Pee.
Amanda: The kids had something in elementary school called specials. I think maybe it was when you did art at tables. There was a woman who lived about two blocks away from us. And she was like, oh, Amanda, your daughter said the wildest thing in specials. And I was like, oh, she said the word vagina. And the woman was like, I couldn't believe she called it that.
Magda: How old was she?
Amanda: Kindergarten.
Magda: Where on earth did you live that these people were so weird?
Amanda: I thought we were pro-calling the body parts what they are.
Magda: I thought the big debate in kindergarten nowadays with kids who are just becoming adults now was that some kids called it a vagina and some kids knew that it was the vulva that they meant. Wow.
Amanda: You don't know. And I remember the same thing happened when the girls... I let them watch Pitch Perfect. I mean, I'll admit I didn't know quite how raunchy it was going to be, but...
Magda: I don't think there was anything that raunchy in it. I mean, it was like sexual innuendo.
Amanda: So they were four, six, and eight.
Magda: Yeah. It's not even provincialism. It's like prudery. And I guess I don't feel like I experienced that as much and I don't know if it was because I was a single mom pretty early in the game and they didn't know what to do with me anyway, right? Like your fantasy, your Kate and Allie fantasy of being a single mom, like there's something to be said. I think I missed out on a lot of mom stuff because people just didn't know how to interact with me or be friends with me or they were scared of me or whatever. But at the same time, I also didn't hear a whole lot of comments.
Doug: We missed out on a lot of stuff, yeah. We'd go to schools and sit next to each other and get along fine, and the other couples were like, what the hell's that about?
Magda: Well, but even when I was there by myself, like, I remember that I was at some thing and this woman was talking to me avidly and she was super excited about, you know, my just having moved there and all that stuff. And then like, oh, what does your husband do? Oh, I'm divorced. Oh, you're divorced. And, like, that was okay. She was talking to me for another couple of minutes, and then she found out that I had a job and that I worked full time. And just, it was like, le cut direct, right? Like, ka-chunk. Suddenly her eyes just shuttered, and she literally just stopped talking to me in the middle of the sentence and turned away.
Doug: For those who don't know, the three girls are in a three-part harmony band. They all play instruments as well.
Amanda: Yes.
Doug: Now that Briar's gone, how often do they get the chance to perform together?
Amanda: It’s really kind of summers. They did a couple of gigs over the holiday break. So they are starting to book out for the summer. They are just so good. I think that’s the place where I have to hold Sean back. I have to bite my tongue a little bit because they've been singing together for so long and each have a beautiful voice and amazing presence, they could do that. But it's not our life to plan.
Doug: So what is Sean's role in all this? Is he very excited or does he want to pump the brakes?
Amanda: He plays guitar and he arranges all the music. He changes the music for them to play on their different instruments. And so he has a big role in it. And he's the one who will be like, it's time to rehearse. But usually he'll say to me, can you get the girls to come here to rehearse?
Doug: Now they've been performing for how long? When was the first gig?
Amanda: Well, they performed at Sean's mom's wedding. Well, that was whenever...
Doug: That's always a good start. That's better than some bullshit open mic night.
Amanda: When did gay marriage become legal in New York State?
Doug: This whole podcast is a history lesson. I'm really enjoying the fact that we're grounding all of these developments into watershed moments in legislative New York.
Amanda: It was pretty cute. So Finley was just a kid. Yeah, there was a thing in Lake George called Lake Georgia Youth Theater, which Sean was a part of. It would have celebrated its 50th year, maybe two or three years ago. They would do three shows over the course of, I think, five weeks, and they mounted pretty significant shows. So Briar was in that, and then Avery was in it. Finley was in it for one year, and then I think COVID happened. And then they did community theater together, musicals. So certainly singing together since Finley was four.
Magda: Wow. And what kind of music do they do?
Amanda: So we try to find stuff with harmonies. It's a mix of pop. So they do some Taylor Swift, but they do Nancy Sinatra and the Beach Boys and Natalie Cole, Noah Kahn, Van Morrison. What's interesting is because the mix is decided by the girls and Sean and occasionally I'm like, will you do a Sugarland song when they play outdoors? People from four-year-old kids to 70-year-old men. I would say their sweet spot is men in their late 50s, early 60s who are like, “You're amazing! You're amazing! Honey, come stand with me!”
Doug: Is that how you and Sean first got together? Just this mutual appreciation for performance? Because you were in theater for a while. This is also an aspect of your life I never knew much about. Before Trampoline came along, what was your experience there and how do you try to advise the girls when they're performing, which is as much theater as it is musical talent?
Amanda: Yeah. Well, when Sean met me, I was in technical theater. I had been a scenic carpenter at Williamstown in 98. And then in 99, I was the assistant production manager and he came and he was designing the programs and so to get my attention he would help with the turnover and breaking down the sets and stuff. The girls definitely look to Sean for music cues but I will talk to them about engaging with an audience. I can usually tell when one of the girls locks eyes with someone in the crowd and I said to Finley once, I was like, so that guy you know, you were really, it was really sweet, you're kind of singing to him. And she's like, “I do it for the tips, Mom.” That's what I wanted to raise. She's smart. So they have a little bell that they ring when they when they get a tip and they all say thank you.
Magda: Oh, that's so funny.
Amanda: Yeah, they're pretty irresistible. You know, Sean and I owning this agency together, we're constantly performing, you know, you assess the room and you figure out what to do. Is he going to do, you know, his bow tie and break into song? And we play really well off one another. We have a client right now who I kind of brought in but she really, she really likes Sean, so she's like, Is Sean coming to this meeting? Sean can go, whatever works.
Doug: Yeah, for the tips.
Amanda: Right. Get that ball across the line. Yeah. Where do the girls learn that?
Doug: But this is an example now of the life you've built based upon the example you somehow figured out how to put out in the world. I remember seeing this on Instagram. It was a black and white reel, I think, and something had happened. And you said, don't come for my children. I'll protect my children in a way that I never protected myself. I mean, we talk a lot about elder care on the podcast, and that's not a part of your future, but where are you with that now? To the extent you want to share this, explain where you are with your mom and how that's informing your way forward as a newly turned 50-year-old. Happy birthday.
Amanda: Thank you. I think I created some boundaries and it was very hard for me to do. It was probably overdue. And I think a lot of times with boundary-setting, there has to be a huge event. But sometimes it's just a quiet, it is time. Like no more fighting, no more scorekeeping. It is just, it is time. And so I did that. And I'm in therapy, and I am open with my family, and I'm trying to say that my daughters get to make their own decisions. And that means they may not want to keep the same boundary that I have. So the post that you're talking about, I'm almost certain that it came from a boundary I had set being violated, but that as I evaluated it, it was like, well, my daughter didn't set the boundary. I set it. But after this violation, it was then my daughter's decision. How does she want to do this? We had a big conversation as a family about we each get to make our own decisions and things that happen affected us all differently. I asked that my daughters and Sean respect the longer history I had and how it allowed me to anticipate patterns. So one of the things that has always happened with my family is whether or not we were talking, they were reading my blog. And there were times in the past when I used it to communicate. All right, you're gonna read this? You're gonna read this, my friend. But, you know, there comes a point when you're kind of tired of subtweeting, right? So I just, I wanted it known that I knew what had happened. And I said, you get to decide what you want to do. But I think I alluded to you the other day that it’s very hard to live in a society that seems to create kinda like the same thing in high school. This is your next path. Choose how you’re going to deal with your parents. Are you going to build an in-law apartment? Are you gonna put them in long-term care? What are you doing? Because this is your next responsibility. And I feel like people want it to be really black and white if you choose not to take that path. Well, why? So much judgment. And I’m getting better at not caring about the judgment, but the aftershocks. The tremors, as I parent my kids through milestones that I didn’t have. Yeah, I didn’t apply to college.
Magda: Did your mom apply to college for you? Is that what happened? She applied on your behalf?
Amanda: Yeah.
Magda: Wow.
Doug: This is where you're going and I'll take care of everything and you have zero agency in the entire process.
Magda: Yeah.
Amanda: So I'm realizing now what a theft that was. You know, back then I just kind of, I kind of laughed. I kind of just towed the line. But there's a part of me that's like, what would have happened if I could have picked? If I could have been rejected? It's weird.
Doug: The way you talk about your daughters, especially Briar is the oldest, the way she was putting those post-its around when she left. That's her way of protecting you. That's her way of being aware of how much you were going to miss her and how leaving these notes, we're saying it's going to be okay, I miss you too, and we'll be back before you know it, etc. Have you talked to her at all about your dynamic with your mom? Clearly, they must be curious. When you want them to learn about some of the rougher edges of life, how comfortable are you to talk to them about your own experience?
Amanda: Well, you know, what I will say is impressive to me is that all of them were matter of fact about like, Mom, you can just, you can block them. They feel that autonomy in a way that like I didn't raise them directly to have that. And I was shocked because it took me so long. It took me hearing from a counselor several times. You can say no, you don't have to answer the door. And I was just like, what? Like, that's an option?
Doug: You say you didn't raise them that way, but you kind of did, whether you meant to or not.
Magda: Well, you know, a friend of mine posted on Facebook like a couple weeks ago, “I don't know if you all know this, but if somebody knocks on your front door, you don't have to go answer.” And there were people in the comments who were really like, wait, what? I was modeled that by my mom, right? She would just be like, “Well, I don't know who it is and I don't have time for this now.”
Doug: Yeah, and I do that five times a week. I get clipboards at my door all the time.
Magda: It's because Ann Arbor is Clipboard Central of the entire Northern Hemisphere.
Doug: It's clipboard city and there's this one little part of my house. I have two big windows in the front of my house and there's one little pillar you can hide behind and they look in and they can’t see you, and that's where I go until they walk away.
Magda: Doug, I mean, the point is they can see you and you still don't have to answer the door, right? Like, you're not required to answer the door. And I think, Amanda, it's interesting that...
Doug: True, but then you'd like, who knows what kind of mood this person's in. They might just put an X in my mailbox and come back later with an egg or something.
Magda: I mean, Amanda, it's interesting to me that it sounds like your mother wanted you to pay attention and do everything that she wanted you to do, but she inadvertently also conditioned you to think that everybody else had the right to you at the same time somehow.
Amanda: I think, you know, a place where I would say I have compassion for her. I do think that she was living in reaction to her family of origin and the dynamics that were there. I can understand why she made certain decisions because as I'm working with the girls, I'm thinking about where I came from.
Doug: Is there any curiosity left? Clearly, the ties are severed for the moment. That may be the end of it, and that's fine. I just remember talking to Kurt Warner. You know him? He's a quarterback. And his father left the family. And the thing that struck me was, his father's name is Eugene and his middle name is Eugene. And here he was with very little idea who his father was, but walking around with his name on his birth certificate and how that weighed on him a bit. And they didn't talk for a long time. Now, granted, getting famous tends to reconnect bonds in a way, but he assured us that it's all good. They're in a good place. Reconciliations happen.
Amanda: So here's the thing. I believe that the best example is to stand firm in this because what I realized when I was brought to this point of I'm ready to do this, it was based on what has happened since I have been a wife and a parent. To then unpack the 25 years that preceded that, I have so much anger and so much disappointment. And both of them at separate times, my stepdad and my mom, talked about the regrets they had. And they get to have those regrets. I also get to be angry and aware of how little they chose to show up for me.
And I feel it more every time I show up for my girls. The part that I still grapple with is the question of why now? You know, I had a nightmare last night. And it involved, you know, the show that the girls were in and my family. And it was superimposing an experience I had had with what had really happened. And I'm kind of blown away by what the mind can create that has never actually happened. You know, how can I hear him saying those words or see her making that face? But I still, when I look in the mirror, I will see my mom. And there are times when I wonder what happens when I can't run away from that anymore. And then I have to say to myself, not Briar, not Avery, not Finley is me. And when I look at it that way, they didn't grow from my rib, right? They're not this perfect recreation of me. They are completely themselves. And every once in a while, there's like this little, oh, I think that was me. Sorry. Sorry that you scream when you see stuff. And I try, but it is a battle every single day.
Doug: Well, how long ago did it happen? How long ago was the final blow struck?
Amanda: Maybe two and a half years.
Doug: Yeah, so it's still pretty raw.
Magda: I had a chance to talk to a whole lot of people separately. This was maybe five years ago for a project that a friend was working on that I got involved in. And a thing that kept coming up was death of relationships. And sometimes it was an actual death of a person that the person I was talking to had been close to, as a partner or spouse or a parent or a very dear friend or something like that. And what came up again and again and again and again, even when it wasn't a physical death, even when it was just death of a relationship, was that when something ends like that, it takes like a year for you to feel like you’re even a human being again. Like there’s just a year where you’re walking around in a fog. But you really haven't gotten back to who you were or having your feet under you or being able to make decisions with as much freedom or lack of friction, for a full three years. And I kept hearing this story again and again from people who had no idea that the same story was being told to me over and over again. But three years is the mark. And I think like people are just kind of looping through and maybe they can interface with other people, but it's still like you're a little bit underwater until that three year mark. And I think if this was ongoing for your entire life, how could you know what to make of it at all until this far out? And the fact that you established that boundary is like the beginning of everything, but that's not like you plant a tree and it has fruit the next week.
Amanda: Yeah.
Doug: You know, I thought of you. Have you seen All of Us Strangers?
Amanda: No.
Doug: That's a brilliant, amazing, sad, haunting movie. It's about two men who meet, one of whom lost his parents in a car crash when he was 12, and the other has been cast out of their family because he's gay. And so it's a discussion of grief. The one thing about Andrew Scott's character, because his parents are dead, he's taken it upon himself to soothe the people who offer him support. He says, oh, don't worry, it was a long time ago and I'm getting better at it. And Paul says, yeah, I don't think that matters. You know, because grieving, you don't get over grief. You just process it. It becomes a part of you, right? And whatever that grief is, whatever was there and is no longer there, that's a viable thing. You might get something out of it. I was just stunned by it. I bawled my eyes out. I'm going to cry now just thinking about it. And there's the artist in you that I think would really appreciate that.
Amanda: I'll check it out.
Doug: So now, you had a very clear idea about what your life would be like at 26.
Magda: I'm so delighted by that. I'm just absolutely delighted that that was your vision before you even had kids.
Doug: Well, Kate and Allie were a powerful example.
Magda: They were.
Amanda: They were.
Doug: I loved that show. How do you not love Jane Curtin? Good heavens. But the bottom line is now you're 50. You've reached that threshold. Did you think about it much? But while it was coming up, did that 26-year-old ever think about what 50-year-old Amanda would be like? And do you ever even have the time to contemplate stuff like that?
Amanda: I hadn't thought about it. It's weird how much I find myself saying, like dropping into conversation, “I'm 50.” And I think it's just like an incredulity. I'm like, oh, okay. And you see it in how far you have to scroll to get to your year. I'm about to be out of the age bracket thing where I go into the next one. I'm like, I'm still relevant.
Magda: I've seen so many of those age bracket things lately that are “45 to 54” and I'm like, oh, some woman changed this when she was 49. Like rearranged the whole schema for her whole job.
Doug: Do you want to get like a big red velour pantsuit like Molly Shannon and
Amanda: No, it used to be like when Sean and I would be at the gym together and he'd throw the medicine ball and I'd do the sit-ups and I'd be like, I just want something that says three vaginal births. I just want people to know why I'm being a little slow on the up. I'm trying not to pee.
Doug: Even if it's secret pee.
Amanda: Even if the gym doesn't feel secret.
Magda: That could be the new marketing campaign for the vaginal estrogen cream people because you know the vaginal estrogen cream helps with that. And they could just market it as “Stops secret pee.”
Doug: That's got to be a daunting thing to just have in your existence because you're so aware of secret pee. You've been telling your children about secret pee for ages. I think there's something there.
Magda: I hate to tell you this. A lot of women at the gym between the ages of 30 on up have secret pee while they're at the gym.
Amanda: Yep.
Doug: Oh, for sure.
Magda: Yeah.
Doug: I mean, it's all about pelvic floors and other things that are magically interesting things for men to contemplate. Wow, we got through an entire hour without talking about hot flashes. I'm impressed.
Amanda: And I didn't have one. This is amazing. I usually do.
Doug: Do you have fans around the house everywhere like Laurie does?
Amanda: I thrash. I have blankets for when I'm cold and I throw stuff off. And we talk openly and I've brought it too much to the workplace. I'll be in a meeting and I'll be like, is it hot or am I having a hot flash?
And people are kind of like, they didn't want to be there for that. But then it's there and we've said it. It's okay.
Magda: Well, in the UK, they're trying to pass labor laws about giving women who are in perimenopause and menopause like hot flash days to stay home from work or something like that. But at the same time, they're also saying that women who are in perimenopause, instead of going on hormone treatment, they should be doing CBT because therapy is what's going to fix this problem with your hormone levels.
Amanda: Okay. So yesterday I went live on TikTok for the first time. I thought maybe I didn't have enough followers for it, but it let me do it.
And I did this because I'd been fed a TikTok and it was a woman who looked like maybe late 50s. It was some sort of drumming thing. And so she was doing this and there were a bunch of other women in there and either the text or the voiceover said, “middle-aged women will do anything and call it exercise.” You know, then the comments were like, they were mocking the instructor for how she was built. I thought about how just in the last four years, let's say, what I have been able to do has changed. Now, last year and the year before, I took on a challenge because my business partner loves mountain biking. It's called the Black Fly Challenge, and it's 40-ish miles in the Adirondacks on gravel. You know, last year I got to the end of it and it was like the last mile and there was a woman right behind me. And I was like, I can't let her beat me. And literally my legs, it's like I forgot how to pedal, but I kept, you know, you see the marathoners who, that was what was happening on the bike, but I held it together and I finished ahead of her. And my business partner said to me yesterday, he's like, “so Blackfly Challenge?” And I was like, oh, I don't think I want to. So anyway, I've been lifting, but anytime I run, Sean researched it. It's called like the piriformis or something.
Magda: It's the muscle that goes around your sciatic nerve! And when it twitches and when you basically get a charley horse of the piriformis, it is the worst pain that you can imagine. And I know this because my body is so literal. I one time had a client who was a pain in the ass and that gave me piriformis pain. I had like a charley horse of the piriformis muscle for weeks and weeks and weeks until somebody figured out that it was psychosomatic, and I went into a massage therapist and it was the most painful hour of my life, but she worked the muscle out and then it was done. Yeah, that is not a pain that you can work around.
Amanda: Right. So no no no, I haven't wanted that to happen again, so I've been walking and lifting weights. But you know coming from the age of no pain, no gain, it feels like I'm slacking. But then to see this guy say this thing, I went on the live and I was like, you cannot know. You cannot know until you have your own pregnancy or you hit whatever age. We're all going to age differently. Every 50 is different and you can't. Perimenopause is the same way. I have friends who don't have hot flashes, but they have all this other shit. I guess it's my beef with everything. When people expect a childhood to be the same or a marriage to be the same or whatever. It's like bullshit. There's so much judging and expectation and it's like if you could stop expecting me to do exactly what you've done, doesn't that give you more freedom?
Magda: I also would challenge that dude to actually take a drumming class. Because I did a drumming class once that was billed as exercise, and oh my God, it was really brutal. It was so brutal because the bounce back of those drums, it was really hard to control.
Amanda: Well, and I would also challenge him to have three vaginal births. Then come at me, bro.
Magda: I think we fixed it.
Amanda: I think we've fixed it all.
Doug: Hey, all right. That's always the goal. Let's just fix one thing.
Magda: I don't know if you feel that it was worse than vaginal births, but I do think that piriformis pain was worse than vaginal births.
Amanda: Well, at least with the birth, you knew when it was going to end.
Magda: Yes. It has to end. You don't with that injury.
Amanda: Yes. And you're going to have to get a kid out of it.
Magda: Right, right.
Doug: Well, it's like they say, right? You don't always have to answer the door. So if someone wants you to do something, you can say, no, I'm hiding in the corner of my house.
Amanda: Yeah.
Magda: I mean, I've been a big proponent for years and years and years and years, and it got even stronger when I had kids of my own of the idea that kids owe their parents nothing. And if kids want to be close to their parents, if they want to take care of their parents, if they want to do that stuff, that's a wonderful situation. But kids essentially owe their parents not a single thing.
Doug: Except the tolls that he just incurred on the Thruway to get to your house.
Magda: Oh, well, he asked about that. We're going to get him a transponder.
Doug: Right, because, yeah, as of now, the Thruway sensors, that license plate comes to me. So I have gotten more stealth tolls from both our sons. Oh, I guess I'm covering this.
Magda: I think you've gotten stealth tolls from me, too.
Doug: Oh, I have. And still traffic tickets. Amanda, I'm so glad you came on to talk to us. I've been wanting to talk to you for a while. I've loved your writing for so long, and I know there's a really rich story behind it. And I'm so glad you were willing to come talk so frankly about the things that made you who you are. It must have been tough.
And I really am grateful that you've made the time to talk to us and talk in a way that I hope a lot of people can derive some comfort from.
Amanda: Thank you. It was fun.
Doug: Magda, did you have anything else to add?
Magda: Not on tape.
Doug: Oh, okay. So I'm going to turn off the recording and then the real kibitzing starts?
Magda: Yeah.
Doug: Okay. And I wanted to ask, too, where can people who are listening, where can they find you online, find your work at Trampoline Design and where your writing is?
Amanda: I have the blog at amandamcgee.com. I haven't written there in a while. I've been spending more time on Instagram. I'm Amanda Magee on Instagram and I'm Amanda underscore for now at TikTok and my company is Trampoline Design and we are Design Tramp on the socials.
Doug: Is that Amanda underscore for now? Like is that? Are you going to be in something else?
Amanda: Well, you know, I think I started a different TikTok and it might have had mom in it and then I got locked out of it. And so then I started this one because fuck passwords and technology. I thought maybe I'd go back to the other one, but I kind of like what “for now” says. It promises that I can change my mind.
Doug: Do you ever want to perform again?
Amanda: I don't know. I'm kind of enjoying watching the girls. I'd love to write a song with Sean. I'd like to experiment with that. Or write a play, even.
Doug: Are you a playwright?
Amanda: You know, I haven't, but we designed and built the set for the girls' high school musical this year, and there was a young woman in the show who partway through the run said, that couch and chair you found, who owns it? And I said, we're giving it to the school. And she said, could I use it for the middle school play? And I was like, what's the play? And she said, well, I wrote it. She wrote a play called Out of Time. So that might just be my inspiration, which how amazing would it be to have a middle school-aged girl get me to write a play?
Doug: I like that. Well, you're a one-stop shop. You know how to do everything else. You can build the sets.
Amanda: But wait, there's more!
Doug: You can put the costumes together. Well, you'll figure that out. That's the next frontier. But yeah, get the thing written, man. And you’ve got the full production company possibility and you can market it.
Amanda: There you go.
Doug: So all that's left to do is just write the damn thing. Anyway, thank you for listening to Episode 39 of the When the Flames Go Up podcast with Magda Pecin-Jazarin and me, Doug French. Our guest has been Amanda McGee, soon to be a playwright in the theater near you. When the Flames Go Up is a production of Halfway Noodles LLC and is available on all the usual platforms and at whentheflamesgoup.substack.com. Please subscribe there for our weekly episode every Wednesday and our newsletter, Friday Flames, which comes out every Friday. If you listen to us on Apple Podcasts, please keep sending us our reviews. That really helps us out. We'll be back next week with Episode 40. Until then, thanks again and bye-bye.
Magda: It’s so weird to watch you stumble through these, Doug!
Doug: Well, you know, like I say, perfect is the enemy of mediocre.