Episode 62: Transcript

"Caring for her parents in Tokyo means bridging a huge cultural gulf." - with Aya Yusukawa-Dudzinski

Magda Pecsenye Zarin: I feel like it's that time of year when the light is changing and I suddenly can sleep for like 10 hours at night.

Doug French: Except you get Reveille when it's dead dark outside now.

Magda: Yeah, Reveille plays at 6:30, but for nine months of the year, it's bright sunshine at 6:30 here. And it was not, it was dark this morning and I woke up and Mike was still sawing logs. And so I just went back to sleep and then I woke up and it was like almost nine.

Doug: All right. This is Daylight Savings coming up right on next weekend.

Magda: Well, we're in Daylight Savings Time. You know what I mean? The time change is coming back. 

Doug: Thank you. Mistress pedantic is in the house. Well done.

Magda: I just hate when people call the time change “Daylight Savings Time” because Daylight Saving Time is delightful and the time change is horrible and I don't want Daylight Saving Time to do the time for the time change’s crime.

Doug: So I triggered you and I apologize.

Magda: Yeah, I hate Standard Time. I really don't like it.

Doug: Right. Well, we'll just perish that thought right away. Although at least it'll be lighter out in the morning starting on Sunday. I really love this episode just because it went totally in the different direction that I thought it would. Because here I was thinking the biggest barrier was that she has to care for her parents in Japan. And that's the easy part. That floored me.

Magda: Yeah, she'd be having these same problems if her parents lived right next door to her.

Doug: Which is also interesting because of the history they have, because she was accustomed to seeing her parents once every couple of years and that was it. And if you get in that pattern and all of a sudden, wait a minute, now our lives have to converge again. She's got to not necessarily rebuild, but in a lot of cases, she's got to build for the first time, like recognize we need each other now more than we ever have. We got to start over somehow.

Magda: But Doug, did you listen to the episode while we were taping it? Their lives don't have to converge. Her mom doesn't want to let her in to take care of the parents. So this whole rearrangement of her trying to go more often is not out of necessity. It's because she wants to be there for her parents. And now she's got to figure out how to get her mom to let her in.

Doug: Entropy suggests that she's going to be needed over there, independent of what her parents think. And the slow thaw is in place, or at least it started off.

Magda: I mean, I think you're saying this as if it's just a requirement that parents let their kids in to help them. There are plenty of people who go into their last few years and die without anyone else's help. And it's entirely possible that you wouldn't let your kids in to help you.

Doug: Did you think that that's happening though? This is fascinating now because based upon our perception of this episode, I came away thinking they're on the path.

Magda: I came away thinking that Aya wants to be on the path and has to figure out how to get her mom to let her even look through the keyhole to see if she can see her!

Doug: Oh, okay. So now we can leave it up to our listeners. Listeners, if you think that there's a future in this relationship, text “yes” to whatever number comes up first in your queue.

[Theme music fades in, plays, fades out.]

Aya Yasukawa-Dudzinski: I don't agree with the sizing of American mugs because, one, they're too heavy. Like, ow. And it gets cold by the time you get through it at all. And this was something that Matt discovered when he was in Japan and saw how tiny the mugs are. The big sizes are 10. Regular sizes are 8 or 6. Which is the perfect size. So we've made a point to collect mugs every time we go to Japan because it's the perfect size to drink it while it's still hot.

Magda: What do you drink out of a six ounce mug?

Aya: Anything. You just go get another cup if you finish it. 

Magda: Okay.

Doug: Right. If you get a venti or something, because that's the standard size here. Venti is like the de facto size, which is as big as a farm silo. And by the time you're halfway through the coffee, it's already tepid.

Magda: Yes. I think it depends on the insulating quality of your mug.

Aya: Yes, but it has an open face. Look at all that heat escaping.

Magda: Maybe the problem is that we're treating regular ceramic mugs like they're travel mugs that have a hat on the top to prevent all the body heat of the coffee escaping,

Aya: Matt's dad will take a open regular mug in his truck.

Magda: Oh, I would too if it would fit in the thing. I really don't like travel mugs. I don't like the top arrangement of them. 

Aya: It's an open container. Do you not get nervous driving? 

Magda: Oh, I do not get nervous driving because I am from the Midwest where it's flatter than a pancake. Like, you know, unless I get like actually T-boned, there's nothing that's going to bounce out of the cup because it's so flat there. I never used a parking brake until I was like 24. 

Aya: I don't know if I've ever used it.

[Everyone laughs]

Doug: Well, I don't like drinking through a lid at all because if you drink through a lid, then your coffee tastes like the lid.

Magda: So what you're saying also is you were never a smoker? The smoke would have tasted like the filter?

Doug: You're speaking gibberish now. Yeah, I assume so. I'm saying if I get a lid at a coffee place, then my coffee tastes like the plastic lid, and I don't want that. I want the pure interaction with my coffee and my taste buds.

Magda: This is why I don't listen to audio books. The person speaking is the plastic lid to me. I don't like interference between the words and my brain. Sorry, welcome to my world.

Aya laughing: That was the most philosophical way somebody explained to me why they don't like audiobooks.

Magda: I only figured it out because, you know, I've had a real problem with audiobooks for a long time. I just cannot listen to them. But I started listening to Barbra Streisand's memoir, and she's reading it herself. And I'm really enjoying it, although it's 48 hours. And I figured out that I'm enjoying it because it's her just telling me stories. Yeah. And people had said, yeah, you can read it. And if you get the book, it's got photos in it. But if you listen to the memoir, it's her telling it, and she interjects other stories in that aren't in the written version. So I was like, oh, clearly I have to listen to it. But it's just her telling me the stories herself, right. It's not like somebody else. And I realized I was trying to listen to something different, and I was like, wow, this narrator just doesn't get this thing in the book. And then I was like, oh, it's that I'm reading it filtered through somebody else's voice and inflections and all that stuff. That's why I can't listen to it. So it explained it to me.

Doug: That can be a real deal breaker. Yeah, if the voice is annoying, then you can't listen to it.

Magda: Well, not even annoying, but just like not what you think the book is about. Or, you know, they're emphasizing the wrong thing.

Aya: I did try to listen to Bridgerton on audio. No.

Magda: Wow.

Aya: No. The narrator. I can't.

Doug: The novel, I guess. The novel on which the Netflix series is based. 

Aya: Yes, yes.

Magda: There are like 45 of them, Doug. Mike has read them all, and he tells me the ones I should read.

[Aya laughs]

Doug: Okay.

Aya: I already have the actors in my mind, and I thought the audiobook would give me more that I wasn't able to get enough of from the show. No. Oh, God, no. The narrator, no.

Doug: Well, you've seen them naked two, which is especially off-putting, because you've already seen more than you see of most people, and now you're trying to reconstruct your impression of them, having seen their butts.

Aya: Exactly. And more.

Doug: So, first of all, I'm so glad you get to meet. Now, Aya Yusukawa-Dudzinski, please meet Magda Pecsenye Zarin.

Aya: Hello. Nice to meet you. 

Magda: Nice to meet you.

Doug: Fifteen syllables between you. And yes, I'm going to go towel off now, having said that.

Magda: I know. I mean, it's like when you have an unusual first name, you get that whole “Uma, Oprah, Oprah, Uma” thing all the time.

Doug: Did you happen to notice the portmanteau in the email, Yazoo Duds? 

Magda: I did not.

Aya: You're the only person that ever pointed that out, Doug.

Doug: I am delighted by that, not least because it either sounds like one of those exotic Japanese candies that people only buy in Japan, like a billion flavors of Kit Kats.

Aya: Okay.

Doug: Or it sounds like dyslexic open-to-laundromat.

Aya: Okay. Okay.

Doug: Nothing? Okay, good.

[Everyone laughs[

Aya: I'll take your word for it.

Doug: I do love editing these things because if something lands like a lead balloon, out it goes.

Magda: Yeah, that's good.

Doug: Selective appreciation for my attention to them. [Aya laughs] Thank you both for being here. And Aya, I'm especially glad you're here to tell your story because lately we've been talking a lot about people and their aging parents and how it can be a challenge whether they're next door or across the country. But now you've got parents who are in Tokyo and you're the only child.

Magda: We need some context that Aya is not in Tokyo, right? You've got to get some context. Because anybody listening to this is going to be like, okay, and where's Aya, right?

10:22

Doug: She's also in Japan. So really, what are we worried about? No, she's in Michigan. Yeah, she's half an hour from me right now. And even though we came in hot with a list of grievances about coffee cups, we're now going to talk about the real stuff. You're not 50 yet, but you are suffering from Early Onset Fiftyhood because of this weird situation you have. So welcome aboard.

Aya: Thank you. Thank you.

Doug: Even though you are of Japanese descent, you've been here more than you've been there, right?

Aya: Correct. So a word that I just recently found out is a “third culture kid.” So that is when people have moved around either because they had a military family or the parents being expats, their jobs taking them to different countries, essentially identifying with more than one place as home and just kind of like a mixing bowl of different cultures and identities and sometimes not being able to have an identity or tie it to one place. So I came across this word and I was like, oh, I like that. That makes sense. 

Aya: So yes, I am Japanese. I was born in Japan, but my dad was in the automotive industry. So his job brought him to the U.S. in the 80s. I was a year old and that assignment ended. We moved back to Japan when I was seven or eight and I stayed in Japan for just under 10 years from second grade to second year of my high school. That's when my dad had his second assignment to the U.S. and we returned back to Michigan. So even though I've lived in two different countries, in the U.S., all I've known is Michigan and within like a 30-mile radius and where I live now is close to where I lived with my parents in high school. And my 14-year-old now goes to the same high school district that I graduated from, which is a mindfuck to me because it was very odd to me when I moved back to the States and I would be going to high school and I had peers whose parents also graduated from the same high school they're going now, or their parents are teachers at the same high school. Because to me, it was just a norm that you just move around. You don't live in the same house your whole life. So to hear high school kids like, oh, yeah, my parents graduated here and their picture is on the wall. What? Do you get outside? Is what I was thinking. And it's very odd to me that my own daughter is in the same high school district. Luckily, not the same high school. I think I would have had a little problem with that.

Doug: So you graduated high school and did you go to college here too?

Aya: Yeah. So I went to Japanese high school a year and a half and then two years in the States and then went on to college. After my sophomore year in college is when my dad's assignment ended and they moved back to Japan while I stayed.

Doug: Okay, so you've been here essentially since college on your own.

Aya: Correct.

Doug: And where in there did you meet your husband?

Aya: In college! We both went to Michigan State. When we first met, we were both interior design majors. And not surprisingly, the majority of students in that major are women. So he was one of the, I think, two men in the class. And I was just curious, like, to go into a space where you know you're going to be a minority, it's kind of, there's some anxiety there, right? So I was just curious, like, that's pretty cool that you're here. I remember talking to him. It was one of our 8 am classes. And he kind of like shuffled around. And it was like nothing memorable. And then I actually forgot about it. And I literally forgot about him until two years later, we were in another class and he was sitting next to me. And it was one of those art history classes that they like put on a slideshow and dim the lights and talk about old art. So it put me to sleep. It put him to sleep. And when there was a break, you know, we were laughing about it, and, you know, we introduced each other, and he was like, “Yeah, we actually met before.” And I was like, we did? That's how very little of a first impression he left me.

Doug: So your song is What a Fool Believes, right?

Aya laughs: His defense was that it was 8 a.m., he didn't brush his teeth, he thought he looked schluppy, and he was freaking out that a girl was talking to him. I was like, okay.

[Doug and Magda laugh]

Doug: So now you're fully accustomed to having your parents living across the world from you.

Aya: Oh, yes.

Doug: And, you know, when it happens in your 20s, you're just thinking, oh, okay, I'm here and they're there and I'll see them however often I can. And how often was that before the kids came?

Aya: Well, actually, I think every two years, maybe. So it wasn't... 

Doug: Oh, okay. 

Aya: And the fact that Matt enjoyed traveling to Japan obviously helped, because like he's been to Japan 10 times. 

Magda: Wow. That's a lot. 

Aya: Yeah. And before he traveled to Japan, the only time he got on a plane was to Florida.

Doug: That was his first trip out of the country.

Aya: Yeah.

Doug: It's funny. Right before you came on, Magda, Aya was saying like, guys, you're going to have to be the ones to keep me on task because I can just talk about anything. 

Aya: Yeah. I will expand forever. Yeah.

Doug: That's not what we do here. We fix whatever we can in post, but there is no control on the raw end of this. We just kind of let go and see where it goes. The kids went to a Japanese, not an immersion school, is it? But it's more of a, is it an immersion school?

Aya: It's an immersion school. It's part of the public school system, but it's a Japanese immersion school. One of four Japanese immersion schools in the nation. That's just randomly in my neighborhood.

Doug: Which makes sense because I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese people who come to Detroit and work in the auto industry.

Aya: Yes, but it doesn't make sense that it's in the city that it is because Novi, there's a heavy Japanese population there because that's where the Japanese groceries are, whatnot. It is the whitest city. It's one of the whitest cities in America. It was actually ranked number one at one point. Not Farmington, Livonia.

Magda: There's a Japanese immersion school in Livonia??

Aya:  Yeah, I didn't know either. I had no idea. I didn't know either. Not even the Japanese people who live here know.

Doug: You met your husband in college. I mean, was it ever part of the plan initially to stay in America as long as you have? 

Aya: Yes, yes.

Doug: Or before you met Matt, were you thinking you'd grow up and you'd go back to Tokyo and build a life there? 

Aya: No. I'm sure the fact that I spent my youngest years growing up played a huge part in the way my view of the world was formed. So I found it [Japan] to be very constricting and controlling and stuffy. America is very individualistic, good and bad. And Japan is the complete opposite. And it's all about making sure you don't stick out, make sure you abide by the rules, don't disrespect the group structure. And of course, that is just something that's possible because it's such a vacuum, right? It's a homogenous, you know, 90%, 95% same population island. Most everybody looks the same, about the same height, has the same hair colors, hairstyle, eye color, everything. So I found that environment to be very constricting. And knowing my dad's job, I just knew that there was a possibility that he would have another assignment that would take him out of Japan. And so I was honestly waiting for that to happen.

Doug: Did you like say, hey, dad, please get, you know, we're back in Tokyo and I hate it here. Could you please try to get reassigned to Michigan as soon as you possibly can?

Aya: I'm sure I said something along those lines. As a kid. 

Doug: That worked, I guess. 

Aya: Yeah, I'm like, can we go back to America again? And my dad actually did get a second assignment when I was in middle school. But at that time, it was to Kentucky. He knew that it was going to be like that area. It was just going to be a really short assignment before he was transferred to the Detroit area so for a year he lived alone, and so my mom and I were in Japan. And this is actually quite common in Japan, where dad would have an assignment and like even within the country in Japan it is very common for dads to go out and live by themselves. In some cases I've had friends where like the dad has been living apart for 10 years. But it's just like how it's been. So like on weekends, he'll come home and mom runs the ship at home otherwise. And it's a very common thing. 

Magda: Wow.

Doug: That's going to be a through line throughout much of this conversation is how cultural differences are something to overcome in many ways, especially when it comes to caring for your parents and who you just say the newest news is that your father has been diagnosed with dementia. And so as the only child, you're here in Michigan, they're in Tokyo, and you've got some favorable circumstances that help you be as much of a caregiver as you need to be. But I guess, what is that like?

Aya: If anything, I'm just like, thank goodness there's direct flights. 

Magda: Yeah. 

Aya: You know, I have a girlfriend whose parents are in Indonesia. she flies to Japan and then flies to somewhere else and then flies to somewhere else. And the area that her parents are is like in the rural area. It's an ordeal. Same with India. So I just got back from Japan a couple of weeks ago and I just thought, you know, I am so thankful that this is all going down now and not during COVID, because it is so easy. Like the world feels so much smaller when you can literally just hop on a plane and one stop over I can get to Japan. Like it felt so small and so easy. You know if there was like a really killer deal in flight tickets I would even do a long weekend!

Magda: Oh!

Doug: Wow. 

Aya: It felt that easy. And I felt so thankful that that is what I get to feel now. 

Magda: Right.

Doug: Well, I'm glad you just got back from Tokyo because this experience is fresh in your mind. How do you see the trajectory of this relationship now that you know your dad's condition and how your mom is caring for him and how you'll be needed over there in the years to come?

Aya: I would say “fascinating,” how I see it changing. 

Doug: Oh, that's good.

Aya: Yeah. My mom has an iron fist on, like, control.

Doug: Oh, dear.

Aya: She does not like to show vulnerability, weakness. She's not one to ask for help. And I've seen that slowly, like that guard. I don't even know if it's a conscious choice or just the fact that she's just getting tired because she's getting older. Or she's just reaching a point where she can't keep trying. I'm not sure. She would never tell me. But she is becoming much more human to me and not this all-encompassing, I-know-everything parent figure. The older I got, the more I wanted to have like a personal relationship with her, not just like mother-daughter. And I have attempted several times, but did not work out. [Laughs] She does not want that. And now I find that she's letting go of that. 

Doug: Oh, that's huge. 

Aya: Yeah. Although it's taking me some time to get used to, because I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa. Who are you?

Doug: Are you having a be careful what you wish for moment a little bit?

Aya: Sometimes. And then I find myself like, oh, okay, this is what's happening right now. Got it.

Doug: Is there anything specific that you think is triggering this change? Is it just age? Is it just an appreciation of circumstance?

Aya: My dad's diagnosis. She had everything in control until my dad's diagnosis. That is not something she can control. She wants to. She tries to. She's still holding on to it. I can see it. She admits it, but she can't. And so I think, the family, you know, the whole family, Matt and the girls, we went and visited end of last year. And I think her parting words were something along the lines of, “I'll let you know when I need help.” As soon as I heard that, I was like, no, you're not.

Doug: But is that even just putting voice to the fact that she might need it? That seems like a breakthrough.

Aya: She would always say that, but it was a way for her to prove to herself that she would never need to or have to.

Magda: Oh, right. A thing that people here have to deal with a lot is the health care system and the logistics. And a lot of that ends up falling usually to the kids because the parents are so overwhelmed. Is that something that you're worried about in Japan? Or is their system so much better than our system is? People here say it's just like falling off a cliff because there's kind of nothing.

Aya: I mean, I'm not even going to pretend to understand the entirety of our health care system here, right? 

Magda: Right. I don't think anyone can. 

Aya: No, I don't think so. And that's by design. And I think most people find out through crisis. I know it's not like that in Japan. To be honest, I do feel less stressed about the idea of having to figure out the Japanese healthcare system. I don't know how it works, but I feel less stressed over the idea of having to figure that out than maneuvering things here.

Magda: That's fair. That's really fair.

Doug: Speaking about, you know, fluency in a whole new language, that's got to be completely dissonant as far as if you see a benefit to the Japanese system that your parents are availing themselves of, and then you come back to the States and think, why can't we do that here?

Aya: I will tell you, one of the trips, my kids were young and, out of four of us, the three of us got sick. Me and the girls. And I think Chloe had the flu. It was so bad that it was like, you know what? We have to go to the doctor. So me and my American mindset was like, holy shit, I don't have health insurance in Japan. I don't know what to expect. I just know that with insurance, they still charge you like $100 just for an office visit here. Now it's much better. But at that time, Japan, a lot of places didn't take credit cards. It was a very cash only place. 

Magda: Oh, right. 

Aya: So there's three of us that have to go to the doctors. Right. I took like eight hundred dollars in cash just because I didn't know what to expect. Wondering if that was even going to be enough. And my mom was like, you brought how much?? I'm like, I don't know! I don't know. I don't even know if you, can they accept credit cards? Are they gonna let me leave if I don't have cash to pay? And how does that work?

Doug: Are they unmarked bills?

Aya: And also because bills come in like four months later here, right? Like in five stages. So I don't know what to expect. So I go there and they do the thing. Immediately, they have a flu test that they can do right there on the spot that figures out if you have the flu or not. And that's how we found out Chloe did. It was like a half hour visit for all three of us. And I think I paid like less than 50 bucks.

Magda: Oh, wow. 

Aya: For the three of us with no insurance. And then we went across the street to the pharmacy to get our prescriptions. And that was maybe $35 for all three of us. 

Magda: Wow. 

Aya: Yeah.

Magda: Wow.

Aya: That is the reaction my parents have when I tell them about the American health care system. They're like, wow. Wow.

Doug: Well, and speaking of that, what kind of treatments is your dad taking now? And how do you see his treatment evolving?

Aya: I'm not seeing it as much as I'd like to, to be honest. I really would like to go to his appointments. And again, this is a very sensitive subject to talk with my mom because it's her way of holding on to some information, right? Because the more she shares with her daughter, the more vulnerable it makes her.

Doug: Oh, is this a whole like information is power type thing? Like the less you know, the more control I have? Oh my.

Aya: Yeah. I don't hear about anything until after the fact and by accident, right?

Doug: Oh, my goodness. Because I would think that's going to come to a head at some point, right? Because your mom and you are going to have disagreements, perhaps, over what the best course of action is. And there's going to be that pivot point, right? There's going to be that point where... 

Magda: It may never come to a head, though. I mean, if Aya doesn't have an entry point to it, there's no way to force it. And I think this is not uncommon that the parents just don't tell the kids about health stuff. Like I remember my mother getting so angry about the fact that her mother wouldn't tell her or her four siblings anything that had happened, or she would tell one sibling and she acted to that sibling as if she had told the others. So that sibling wouldn't think immediately, “Oh, I got to tell the other four.” Right. So then they'd find out just by accident, like months after something had happened. And I don't think that's at all unusual, but it made my mom so angry that she told my brother and me that there should be like a “right to know” or like a “right to be informed” clause in families. And that she was going to do her best to make sure that we both knew. Now, has that actually happened? No, but it's not that my mom is deliberately hiding anything, right? Like she definitely always thinks that she has told both of us and just sometimes hasn't told both of us. [Laughs] But she usually manages to tell at least one of us.

Doug: At least there’s no one playing one sibling off the other in Aya's family. It's just Aya at that point.

Magda: Right. It's true. But if her mother doesn't want to tell her, like, there's nothing Aya can do about that. In the U.S., there's the whole system of being somebody's medical power of attorney. Right. Which means that you're allowed to get information about that person. But it really only kicks in if the person's unconscious and can't make their own decisions. It doesn't mean that, like, if your parent goes in for a routine test, they call you to tell you the answers. And who even knows what the version of that is in Japan. So, like, it may never come to a head.

Aya: I know!

Doug: When you're here, you feel like getting involved in healthcare is like memorizing an encyclopedia. And in your case, you have to memorize two.

Aya: Yes. 

Magda: But without even having any entry point to that.

Doug: Right.

Aya: Well, the biggest encyclopedia is my mom. [Laughs]

Magda: Yeah.

Doug: Right. Well, yeah. How does she fit into that metaphor? She's like, she's like, the encyclopedia is duct taped shut.

Aya: I mean, the system, at least I can Google. I can't Google my mom's mind, nor do I want to.

Doug: Oh, my goodness. Can you imagine if AI lets us Google our parents?

Aya: Oh, no, I don't want that.

Doug: What a trove that would be. Oh, my God.

Aya: You know, it's common here that every time you have whatever doctors, they always ask family medical history, right? Does your family have a history of XYZ? I don't know. Does it have a history of cancer, of this, of that, neural, whatever? I don't know, because it's not something that we talk about.

Doug: Is that something that she would willingly reveal, though, if necessary? Like, if you made the case that this doctor needs to know this, would she reveal that?

Aya: If I point blank ask, yes. But also, she's in the same situation. That kind of information wasn't passed down to her either, so... Even in the U.S., yes, there are cases where families are very, like, secretive. But then there's the opposite where they tell everything, right? 

Nagda: Mm-hmm. 

Aya: Matt's family tends to be on that side. It's like in real time, everything is, like, all the information is flying around. That's the norm for him. And so when he would ask, like, about my ancestor or just, like, my, you know, wants to remove whatever, I'm like, I don't know. 

Doug: This is fascinating to me because the whole story was that you're geographically distant from your mom, but that's such an insignificant side effect compared to the gulf that's between you and your mom culturally and generationally.

Aya: But also, that's what allows me to be as far away because my parents never expect me to live next door. 

Magda: Interesting.

Doug: But the evolution of your life is dictating that It's going to have to be a bit more hands-on than it's ever been since, you know, since your 20s. And that seems like a family-wide adjustment.

Magda: Well, maybe not, though. I mean, even if Aya lived right next door to her parents, if her mom doesn't let her in... 

Doug: Exactly. 

Magda: She doesn't have to be part of it, and she can't be part of it.

Aya: Honestly, this is all by my will. 

Magda: Right. 

Aya: Like, I did not ask my mom if I could come. I told her I was coming. 

Magda: Oh, wow. 

Aya: Like, she would never be like, hey, I'm feeling overwhelmed. Hey, I'm feeling,you know, a little lonely, like, hey, you know, no, she would never come to me. Like she would never ask me to, hey, can you like put a pause on your life over there and come to take care or just entertain me or be by me. Like never. Even when I was there, just when I got back I actually extended my stay just a couple days. I'm not talking two weeks or anything, just a couple days. Like I was supposed to leave on a Friday and I was like, can I extend it until Tuesday? She paused!

Magda: Wow.

Aya: She had to think about that. She sat on that for a few days. And because I already know my mom's, like, how she acts, like, I didn't press on it. I just, like, in the meantime, Matt's like, what are you going to know? What are you going to know? What are you going to know? I'm like, hold on. There's going to be a window. It just has to be very well-calculated. So hold on. And then, sure enough, two, three days later, she was like, okay.

Magda: It's just an interesting dynamic then. the parent-child dynamic I'm used to and that I think you have with your kids probably, too. I mean, if your kids were adults and were coming to visit you and they said, can I stay a couple extra days? You'd be like, “yay, hooray. I can't wait to see you, my child.” That's the thing about this that I think is so unusual and just out of my experience is the idea that she wasn't... 

Aya: Excited? 

Magda: Really hungry to see her child. 

Aya: Mm-hmm. 

Magda: And do you think that's common of Japanese mothers her age with adult children? Or do you think that's something specific to your mom?

Aya: Both. All of the above. And not only, like, after she said, sure. Two days after that, well, I think she was referring to when just a couple times, like, I FaceTimed with the kids, where I was on the phone with Matt. And she was like, “you know, you guys talk a lot.” And so she was like, you know, I just didn't want me to be the reason that's keeping you away from them. Like, I'm sure they miss you and I'm sure they want you back. I'm like, who cares about them right now? I'm talking about you. I am an independent person able to make an independent choice. Nobody's forcing me. Like, this is me asking, I would like to stay. This has nothing to do with my children. You know, obviously, yes, I talked with Matt beforehand, but like, this is me. So like, basically it comes down to, “I don't want to be a burden,” is really what it is.

Doug: I'm picturing the two of you on either side of a chess table. You know, you're just kind of like formulating strategies of how best to get what you think you want, you know? And like, if I put my pawn there, that'll open up her night.

Aya: That summarizes my relationship with my mother.

Doug: So how do you think, are there strategies that you're planning that you think might work? And I'm asking that because a friend of ours was on a while back. Her father was an athlete and then had surgery that actually went poorly and couldn't use his leg anymore. He was walking around using a cane and struggling and looking very awkward, but he still was convinced that a cane made him look dignified. And so she said, okay, I'm going to try just the data point here. I'm going to say, dad, walk toward me with the cane and I'm going to take this movie of you and you're going to see what you look like.

Aya: Right.

Doug: And so that's where the discussion of like playing chess, playing judo, always thinking about the next step and trying to plan that out. When you think about how this progresses, because inevitably she's going to start needing more help. How do you play the long game in terms of putting your pawns in the right place on the chessboard?

Aya: I am her data point. I'm the video footage. 

Doug: Okay. 

Aya: I have realized that the more I do come, the more she realizes that she needs help, that she doesn't want to do it herself. She can't do it herself. Like she's not there yet. And that's why also she pushed back on me staying longer because she wanted to prove to herself that she didn't need me. 

Magda: Right. 

Aya: As if like the four days was going to make a difference.

Magda: So it seems like culturally there there isn't that push to like hand things over to your kids. Whereas I think here in the States, you know, people joke about, oh, you're old enough that you have to get your kid to program your VCR for you or whatever the next thing is, right? That there is this handing over of. things to your kids. And we joke about that. But there is kind of an understanding that at a certain point, it's okay to let your kids be in charge of whatever. You know, I mean, a few years ago, my parents had my brother and his wife and me, I wasn't married yet at the time. And they knew we were coming to visit them. And they reserved a time with us and sat us down, and gave us copies of their wills and their powers of attorney and their medical powers of attorney and stuff like that. And my mom walked us through all this stuff that she wanted to designate and give to certain people, including her hat collection. And, you know, I told people about that and people were like, oh, your parents are so prepared. Nobody was like, wow, I can't believe your parents did that. And it just sounds like maybe there isn't that cultural reinforcement there in Japan. Like she's not getting anything from her friends about “you need to let your daughter help” or them talking about them letting their kids help.

Aya: Well, number one, her friends don't know because she hasn't told them.

Magda gasps: Okay. Well, there you go. I mean, that's even further in the cultural expectations, right? So everything I know about contemporary Japanese culture is from reading all those books about cats. [Aya laughs] You know how there's this like book about like, you know, you go to the doctor and they assign you a cat and like all this kind of stuff. I just, they're so cheerful and soothing. They're like Prozac in 150 pages. Right. So I have my favorite translators and I read all their books and it's all very pleasant and calming. And a lot of the stories are about fathers and daughters not understanding each other. And then, of course, that's all resolved by a cat.

Aya: Yeah. 

Doug: All the prescriptions are in haiku.

Aya: Or cute illustrations.

Magda: Right.

Aya: And do you know why that is? 

Magda: Well, because it's a way to dissociate without actually dissociating. I mean, I think that's why Americans like to read them. 

Aya: If you don't have to talk about it, let's read it through a cute cat.

Magda: Exactly. 

Aya: I can relate to this, like this little blob of a character more than having to talk about feelings to a real human.

Magda: It absolutely makes a lot of sense. I mean, the one I was just reading, it was basically overt. It was a therapist's office and you would go in and instead of prescribing you an antidepressant or something like that, they would hand you a cat with a prescription of how to take care of the cat and...Very funny.

Aya: It's a very private culture and I think one, it has to do with the size of the country and the number of population, People are in your face all the time especially if you're in tokyo.

Doug: Yeah, we should add, they're in Tokyo proper. 

Aya: Like you want boundaries. You can be literally like this in the train with a stranger, but you don't talk to them. We will bow, we will shake hands, but don't come in for a hug. It's a very private, prideful culture. And there is beauty in holding yourself together, keeping yourself graceful. It is fascinating.

Doug: So your dad isn't presenting a lot of symptoms right now, right? I mean, when your parents socialize, no one's going to notice that your father's going through this yet, right?

Aya: Correct. If you didn't know him, you wouldn't notice.

Doug: And they're going to ride that wave as long as possible until he starts showing real debilitating signs. And then when that happens, what will that process be in terms of revealing what his diagnosis is or will it just not be talked about?

Aya: I have no idea because it wouldn't be up to me.

Doug: There won't be that nosy neighbor who's like, is your husband okay?

Aya: Oh, because there are no nosy neighbors. My parents have lived 10 years with the same neighbor. Do they know each other? No. They're in an apartment building. It's not like it's a house. Like they're right there.

Doug: So who is their emergency contact?

Aya: I don't think they have one. Who's going to call international to like, they wouldn't know. 

Magda: So it's not even just that your mom hasn't told her friends what's going on with your dad. It's that A, her friends wouldn't want to know it because it's too private. And B, her friends could be having the exact same situation and they wouldn't tell her. 

Aya: So. A, I think they would want to know, but it's the pride that assumes I don't want to burden them that keeps it from being shared. But B, correct. I think that her friends would be able to give a lot of support. I mean, even just me sharing what I have shared with my friends in Japan. So many of them are going through the same thing, but I had no idea because they didn't, I didn't know. It's not information they volunteered and shared. It was only because I talked about my story and they were like, yeah, my father-in-law too. Yeah. My mom too.

Magda: Yeah. Well, my dad got diagnosed with Alzheimer's a couple of years ago and his mom had died of Alzheimer's. So we all know how it goes. And they're very open about my dad's diagnosis. And my mom has a lot of friends that she went to high school with who stayed, who moved away and then moved back, all this kind of stuff. So she has this very big connected support system, a lot of whom are people in the same situation with a spouse or a sibling or something that has Alzheimer's or dementia. And so it seems like I'm not as concerned about my mom being so far away because she does have the support system of people who all, you know, when they said my dad got diagnosed with Alzheimer's, people were like, “Oh, good. Finally, you have an answer” because, you know, they had known the whole time. And it just would make me sad to think that your mom doesn't have that kind of support, but even just that she doesn't expect that she could accept that kind of support.

Aya: Yeah, I think that's the part. Like, I don't think she even knows that she could have it or imagine what that's like.

Doug: Well, as you say, she kind of thinks of vulnerability as a burden on the other person. It seems as though she's such an essentially private person who needs to feel endogenously strong that even the idea that she could derive comfort from someone else's help and counsel, that doesn't necessarily sit well with her.

Aya: No. So I went and visited them by myself in May also. And when I did... I mean, Japan is an aging population, just really bad. So obviously, there's a lot of issues that come with that. So as a country, they're trying to set up the system to accommodate for that. And what I find ironic is, like, everybody knows Japan has an aging population.

Magda: Mm-hmm.

Aya: And yet, it's kind of like at a workplace, and let's just say there was like a sexual harassment case. And instead of addressing the problem, which is the person who was harassing, like the person who is being harassed, you just tell them, you know what, why don't you just go to a different department? So it's, like, really not addressing the problem. And then also, like, trying to set up a system where, like, people can, you know, report it. But also when you do, it's not really addressed in the correct way.

Doug: “Yeah, just dress differently if you could. That would be good.”

[Magda laughs]

Aya: Yeah. So, so the first thing that I did, I went to the city hall, this whole, you know, department, you know, is all there to care, care for the aging population. And they walked me through all these steps. Okay. Okay. First thing we can do is register your parents through this. And then let me connect you to this other service where da, da, da, da, da. And like did all this. And essentially I connected my parents to, with an agency that supports people with dementia or just like helping them get set up and offer resources. They're not the ones who cure or help, but like they can help you with resources. And even that, when I was setting it up, we had to frame it in a way that like we had to keep it a secret from my dad that the reason that we were having these appointments was because of him.

Aya: It was just in a way of like, well, you know, I live across the globe and there's not much I can do in the moment's notice. So I just feel better if you have this support system right here, is how we framed it. And that agency specifically handles, you know, families, couples, whatnot, where one person has dementia or whatnot. So there's support groups. There's groups of spouses who are going through that. Because at this point, my dad, considering he's still very independent. Knowing who he is and was, is he the same person now? Absolutely not. But he is still pretty independent. But it's my mom that I'm more concerned about because she's just like holding in, holding in, holding in. And she has nobody to talk to. 

Magda: Mmm-hhhm.

Aya: And so if anything, like I just wanted to get her connected, just knowing that there is a group, there's a resource there. She can just vent because that's all really we all need to do, right? We just need to vent. We're not looking for solutions. We just need to vent, share our feelings. And all I had to do was just set it up. I knew that I couldn't force her. I knew that, you know, it would take time for her to even reach out. But at least if I set it up, It's there. I reminded her, just dropping little bits of it. But at the end of the day, she has to make that choice and I cannot make her.

Magda: Well, and if she's not used to receiving support and support being somebody else just holding on to her, holding on to her feelings, being there for her, she may not really understand or be able to feel the value of that instead of just, fixing the problem.

Aya: Yeah. I found it great that there were these resources and everybody that I talked to were incredible. Like they get it. This is what they do. So they get it. But I just find it ironic. There's this system for a whole population. And yet this whole population is not culturally trained, generationally trained to use those resources. So it's ironic and just so like, oh, like it's there. Yeah. But they don't even know how to use it because generationally, it's not something that they know how.

Doug: And it sounds like part of that ignorance is willful just because of the cultural structure.

Magda: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. See, I feel like here it's that generation that started those resources. Because I think programs like that over here have been in place for 30 years, probably? Like through hospitals, through health care systems. I'm talking about, you know, cancer support groups and Alzheimer's support groups and stuff like that. I feel like those really started to be a big thing in the 80s and 90s, which means that It's the people who are 80 now who put them together and started them. Right. 

Aya: Yeah. 

Magda: But it maybe feels like they thought it was for the people older than they are. 

Aya: Probably like, isn't that what we always think? Like, “Oh, let's help the old people.”

Magda: Yeah.

Aya: “Hi, we are the old people now.”

Magda:  Right. Like the people who are 80 here now are the ones who 25 years ago were having the realization that they hadn't pushed hard to get their parents to go into assisted living. And by the time their parents were able to, because something really happened, it was kind of later than it should have been if they had gotten their parents in five years earlier. And so I think it's the ones who are 80 now who said, “Oh, I'm going to go when it's time. I'm not going to be prideful. I'm going to go when it prolongs my quality of life, stuff like that.” But I don't think that they are. I don't think it's any easier for us to push them into assisted living or supportive situations than it was for them. It's just that they were the first generation who realized it was a problem, but they didn't necessarily internalize that.

Aya: Right. I will say just, and this is something that Matt has observed too, is that Japanese culture or society as a whole is like 50 years behind the U.S. in terms of patriarchy, women's rights, empathy, all of that, 50 years behind. So you just think of, like, what is it, Leave it to Beaver? Like, that's kind of the era that Japan is in right now. 

Magda: Okay.

Doug: Except Ward is starting to lapse into his own mind, and June has to figure it all out.

Aya laughs: So, like, in 50 years, possibly, like, because of the internet and the younger people now seeing how, like, what is possible, maybe it'll change. And I mean, like, the people that I talk to are my generation, right? These people at the agency. So like when we need it, at least we set it up. It's just like...

Doug: So when you ponder the distant future, and I know there's so many variables, so it doesn't really serve much to game things too far into the future. But if there's a scenario when you have one parent left, and you need that parent to be closer to you than such a long flight. Do you even think about how you might reconcile that? Is there a non-zero chance that parent might end up living here?

Aya: No.

Doug: Or is there a non-zero chance that you'd pick up and move there for as long as you were needed?

Aya: What I have thought is, if my mom goes first, then definitely my dad would have to, like, I would have to look into a facility. I mean, depending on how the disease has progressed at that point too, but it would just be too much stress to make him come here. And then if my dad goes first, I know my mom has found her safe space and comfort zone in Japan. I just know she, she won't, she can't, she won't. And right now, I do not see myself moving and living in Japan permanently. Like, the way I see it is just me making the effort to visit as much as possible.

Doug: Well, if you did move her here, I mean, it would be a hell of a sitcom.

Aya: Oof.

[Everyone laughs]

Doug: I would watch that on the streaming service.

Magda: I would be longing for it to be a cat book. [Everyone laughs]

Aya: Yeah, we'll turn each of our family members into a cat character. That'll be not real life humans in a sitcom. It'll be an animated cat show.

Doug: Let's shift to the other side now. Clearly, there's so much going on with your parents, but you also are raising your own family. And it's still pretty young for them. They're tweens-ish. But when you think about the mother you want to be as your daughters become young women, how do you want to create a dynamic that would be perhaps a little less stressful on them than this is for you?

Aya: I want them to see me as a flawed human. They see all my emotions. If I'm upset, they'll see me cry. If I'm mad, they'll hear me pissed. If I'm excited, they'll see me excited and they will see me having a whole life outside of my title as a mother, having partnership with Matt and also me having an independent life from everybody and having girlfriends and going on trips, hanging out with them. And that's with Matt, and Matt and I as a couple, also, we have a lot of get togethers with friends that do not involve our children. But my biggest thing is I want them to know and see me as a flawed human. 

Magda: I think that's great. 

Aya: I don't want them to put me on a pedestal. That's what I used to do with my mom. And then one day I woke up and I was like, wait a minute. She's a normal person like me. Can I talk to her like a normal person? And I did. And boy, did that get rejected fast. 

Magda: Wow. 

Aya: So I was like, okay, never mind. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug: Well, it sounds like you'll also have this particular experience. I mean, I knew you were raising two daughters in America, American citizens, but I didn't realize that you also had the experience of being their age in America. So you do have that level of experience in terms of what it's like to maybe feel, 

to look different from most everybody else and to assimilate into a culture in a certain way. Do the three of you have that as a common experience to help improve that communication that perhaps your mom and you don't have as much of?

Aya: Like nobody could have orchestrated things the way it did. Like it just happened beautifully, organically. And I'm thankful that it did, that I spent very formative years in Japan and the United States. Also, I'm so thankful that now I have language to some of the experiences that I had as a teenager in Japan, 

and also in the United States. Like, I didn't know the word “microaggression” until like five years ago.

Doug: Well, which means Japan will know about that in 45 years.

Aya: I'm like, oh, is that what that was? It's very rare, but still, sometimes I get that, “oh, you speak such good English.” And now when I get that, my response is, “so do you!”

Magda: I was thinking you have such a strong Michigan accent. 

Aya laughing: You're not wrong. I don't know that I do, but I'm sure I do. 

Magda: Oh, you do. You sound just like Gretchen Whitmer. When you were telling the story about your daughter having the flu in Japan and you said you got “eight hundred dollars,” [Aya falls out] I was like, oh, there it is. The Michigan diphthong. “Eight hundred dollars!”

Aya: Wait, what's a non-Michigan accent? How would I say it without a Michigan accent? 

Magda: I don't know if I can because I have a Michigan accent also, but I think it would be [slowly] “ate hundred dollars.” Not “dahllers” and not “eight.”

Doug: Well, think of it, you could go more of a drawl, too. You can say, “eight hundred dollars.”

Magda: When I went to college on the East Coast, I had been dating a guy named Rob, and I would talk about my mom, and everybody made fun of me for saying “mahm.”

Doug: When we first got here, we went to parent-teacher night, and we were sitting next to each other listening to the principal of our kid's elementary school, who was telling us to make sure we collected our backstaps. I'm like, what the hell are backstaps?

Magda slowly: Box tops.

Aya: Oh! [Laughs]

Magda: Oh, I don't even know if they still do it anymore. But a lot of– 

Aya: They do. They do. They do!

Magda: –cut out the box tops and you turn them in and they give you like five cents for your school. 

Aya: Yeah yeah yeah!

Magda: And I'm like, oh, OK, I got to go see if we have any of those box tops. And Doug says to me at the end of the night, he's like, what's a backstap? Like, oh, it's a box top. So then we called her Principal Backstap forever.

Aya: I've had my Japanese family members, like my cousin, tell me that my Japanese had an American accent.

Magda: Oh, that's interesting. I guess I would have assumed you had a Michigan accent when you're speaking English, but like the accent from where your parents were from in Japan when you spoke Japanese.

Aya: Well, it's Tokyo, so there really isn't, I mean, obviously, there's accents like Texas and like it is here. There are those accents, but... 

Magda: It's like a news anchor accent here. Like, there isn't really one. No. Interesting.

1:00:18

Doug: So do you say stuff like [Minnesota accent] “oh, ohio gozaimas”?

[Everyone laughs]

Aya: Sure, Doug. 

Magda: That's like the Minnesota accent.

Doug: Yeah, I know. It's like, “oh, konnichiwa.”

[Everyone laughs]

Aya: Something like that. Something like that.

Doug: Yes. The Michigan accent on the Japanese language as fumbled through by a kid from New Jersey.

Magda: Okay. I have to get going soon. We have to go to Maine. To see a show of either the movie or the stage production. I don't know which one. I don't know which one. And I also, I don't have any clothes anymore to dress up for Rocky Horror. So I sort of, I'm going to look like I'm going to the Jersey Shore. That's as close as I can get anymore.

Doug: Well, tell them the great part about watching this at 7 p.m. as opposed to...

Magda: Oh, well, I mean, well, you know, Rocky Horror the movie is always shown at midnight. And so I've seen it at midnight before, but my husband hasn't because, you know, it's late, right? And so he's seen parts of the movie, but he's never seen the whole thing. But this show tonight is at 7 p.m. So we're like, “oh, this is more our speed.”

Aya: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's for the old people. 

Magda: Yeah, it is totally for the old people. So, yeah, I'm going to be...

Doug in iInnesotan accent: “You can see it, Rocky Horror, and be asleep by 9.30.”

Magda: Oh, yeah, Rocky. Rocky Horror. Yeah. That's the show I'm going to be seeing.

Aya: Yep.

Doug: They give you a discount if you bring your backstabs.

Aya: But you know what, just going back to what you said about like how I can relate to my children. Like, I'm so glad that I have the language to what I experienced as a kid, both cultures, that I can normalize what my kids are going through. Like I may not necessarily relate to every single part of it because like they've never grown up in Japan, right? They visited plenty times, but they're going up in America where everybody is mostly American and hearing all that stuff. So I'm able to relate and give them language and also be like, you know what? If you hear this, Like, that's not okay. Or if you hear that, it's okay to say this or correct them or there's nothing about you that you need to feel less than.

Doug: And it sounds like they've also, even if now they're tweens and aren't necessarily inclined to approach you about stuff like that yet, if and when the time comes, they know they can come to you and recognize that you are a source of comfort and care should they require it.

Aya: I hope so.

Doug: That's the goal, right? It's all we're just flying by the seat of our pants here and hoping it plays out in the back end. Yeah. Well, Aya, this has been terrific. I'm so glad you came on to talk about this. I mean, I had a sense of where this conversation was going.

Aya: I told you I could expand forever! 

Doug: Right, but I had no idea the Gulf was more personal than it was geographical. You're like, “oh, it's super easy to get to Japan, but once I get there, I can't talk to my mom!”[Everyone laughs]  I'm so glad you shared that. And conversations like this, I mean, I've said it many times. I just think the fact that we're all going through something weird, it's just comforting to know that we have each other to talk through and vent to when the time comes, even if there's no solution. It's just something to recognize we're going through and we feel better for having talked about it than to just bottle it up.

Aya: I feel like now the common theme is just, how did we get here? I think that every day, but we're all thinking the same thing: How the fuck did we get here? 

Magda: Yeah.

Aya: And at least there's that common thread, right? We're just, we just can look at each other and be like [makes “I don’t know” noise] and that's comforting.

Doug: Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. It's like the big Plinko board. That's what I always look at in my life is just that big Plinko board on The Price Is Right because my disc went left instead of right. And who knows what would have happened otherwise? All three universes and such. Well, everyone, thank you so much for listening to Episode 62 of the When the Flames Go Up podcast with Magda Pecsenye Zarin and me, Doug French. Our guest has been Aya Yasukawa-Dudzinski. When the Flames Go Up is a production of Halfway Noodles, LLC, and is available on all the usual platforms and at whentheflamesgoup.substack.com. Please subscribe there for our weekly podcast episode, which comes out every Wednesday, and our semi-weekly or bi-weekly, however you look at it, every two weeks, newsletter, Friday Flames. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next week. Until then, happy Halloween, and bye-bye.

[Theme music plays.]

Magda: All right, so you say bye-bye like you're from Michigan also. “Bye-bye.”

Doug: Oh, crap. Well, I have lived here 13 years now…

Magda: You know what? I knew you were a Michigan man when you started backing into your driveway. Okay, I really have to go. So great to meet you.

Aya: Okay! Yes. Have fun.

Magda: Thank you. I'll be dressed just like Snooki. So yeah. 

Aya: Get your fishnets out!