Episode 10: Transcript

"There is agency in all the moments." - with Christine Koh

Doug French (00:00:00):

So can I come in hot with this dream I had last night?

Magda Pecsenye (00:00:03):

Yeah, go ahead.

Doug (00:00:04):

I mean, have you ever had a dream that you revisited four times in the same night in chronological order?

Magda (00:00:09):

Four times? No, but I did when I was a kid and was having nightmares, I taught myself to wake up and then go back to sleep and go back into a dream so I could resolve it.

Doug (00:00:22):

You can teach yourself to resolve a dream?

Magda (00:00:24):

Oh yeah. And then you just have to stay awake enough while you're inside the dream to be able to do what you wanted to do inside the dream.

Doug (00:00:32):

So when I ask you, “Have you ever woken up when a dream was unresolved in your mind and you wanted to go back to sleep and figure out how it ended?”, could you do that if you wanted to?

Magda (00:00:42):

Yes.

Doug (00:00:43):

Wow. That is a superpower. That's one of those things that …

Magda (00:00:48):

<laugh> You could teach yourself to also, but it has to be something that you want to do. And I only did it because I was like 10 years old and having nightmares all the time and had to figure out a way to make it stop happening. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, that you only know about your own dreams? You don't know if everybody else has the same kind of dreams that you do. So my assumption is that you have been in a dream and have had a moment of awareness in the dream in which you're actually like “you-you,” and have decision-making ability inside the dream. That's actually you.

Doug (00:01:26):

Okay. I am even more flummoxed than I was when this conversation started <laugh> because I'm pretty sure I was “me-me” throughout the entire event. But, just, it was the weirdest….

Magda (00:01:36):

Well, okay. But I mean, I think a lot of times dreams are like you're an actor in the middle of a movie, sort of like, you don't really have as much control over it as you do in real life. But there are moments in my dreams sometimes in which I have a moment of like awareness where the awake me is there for a minute and I can be like, “whoa, this is really weird.” Or “Oh, this isn't actually really happening,” or something like that. And the key is you take that little nugget of a moment and you do what you can to resolve it. So I would say at this point in my life, I don't have to wake up and then go back to sleep and then go into the dream to resolve it. If I have one of those aware moments in the dream, I'll just seize on that and use that to end the dream to my benefit.

Doug (00:03:14):

Oh, okay. Well that I get, because I have the recurring dream. I used to when I was a younger man that I would just lock eyes with someone really attractive and then lean in to kiss her and then wake up right then. And boy, I should have trained to go back into my dream to be resolve that.

Magda (00:03:31):

<Laugh>.

Doug (00:03:31):

But the weird thing is I woke up three times, thought about the dream I just had, and fell back asleep and fell right back into the chronological sequence of the dream I just left. And I did that four times last night. And I told my mom this and she basically says this house is haunted.

Magda (00:03:49):

<Laugh>. She might not be wrong. I don't know. There's a lot with dreams in my family and sometimes we are being given information in the dreams that we're supposed to know. And if we don't receive it the first time it comes back again. Possibly you are being given information in this dream that you needed to know and that's why you kept going back into it.

Doug (00:04:09):

I really hope that's not the case. <Laugh>, I really could be blissfully unaware of all of the information that that dream offered me and be perfectly content.

Magda (00:04:19):

<Laugh>

Doug (00:04:21):

<Laugh> But if we're talking about dreams, let's segue to our intro here and … The Dreamy Christine Koh? Should we refer to her as that? I don't know. I'm looking for a second. Yeah.

Magda (00:04:31):

The Dreamy Christine Koh! I was super-glad to finally meet her. She and I have been in parallel and intersecting worlds forever and had just not ever, like, talked-talked.

Doug (00:04:45):

Exactly. And I see so many similarities in the two of you. Your intelligence, number one. Number two you're about the same age. She's about to turn 50. I think she's really ready to turn 50 and in a way that maybe some people aren't, just because of the choices she's made and the success she's earned from them. And you're also going to be neighbors soon. So, you know, she ran Boston Mamas for a long time, <laugh>, and you're about to be another Boston mama. So I figured what the hell, that would be a good introduction to make.

Magda (00:05:17):

I mean, I'm not moving to Boston. I'm moving... I mean, Boston is a state of mind.

Doug (00:05:22):

Well, I am vacationing in New England right now and you should just look forward to the chance to buy literally something called “Wicked Sharp cheddar cheese.”

Magda (00:05:31):

<Laugh>. Okay. All right.

Doug (00:06:03):

Well, anyway, Christine, I'm so glad she came on. She has a successful Substack. She has a successful podcast. She was the other half of the Edit Your Life podcast with Asha, whom we had on a couple of weeks ago. And I just love her overall vibe because she's so put together. I mean, she was raised in a rigorous patriarchal culture, pivoted in midstream, left her scientific training to become a digital creator and podcaster and writer. And all she took with her was the rigor because her website's amazing. If you look at it, it's got everything you need. And when she comes to conferences, she just comes in ready to go.

Magda (00:07:07):

I know that a lot of this podcast that you're going to hear right now is a lot of about the way Christine grew up and the way she's created her life as an adult, that kind of thing. But the thing that I find most fascinating about her as she turns 50 is that she is not afraid to just close the book on one thing and open a new book on something else. It's like I feel like a lot of people our age are sort of stuck in this content that we are stuck in. Like whatever we think our field is, whatever we think our topic is, we’re really afraid to leave that. And she seems to be completely unafraid to leave a content topic and instead is like, “oh, the rigor is what gets me through.” And I really, really appreciate that. 'cause I think some of us are being forced kicking and screaming into that and she just like, it's her choice. You know?

Doug (00:08:32):

That makes it really easy to bet on yourself.

Magda (00:08:38):

Yeah. There's something really interesting about being a child of immigrants and how that affects having a different experience of growing up American.

Doug (00:08:49):

She's someone, I mean, I would bet on her too, frankly.

Magda (00:08:53):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Me, too.

Doug (00:08:54):

So Christine, if you're doing anything new let us know and what the odds are, and I'll put at least a hundred down.

Magda (00:08:59):

<Laugh>

Doug (00:09:02):

And maybe I'll just dream about this interview four times intermittently.

<music?

Doug

What's your ratio of like stuff you put behind the wall versus what you put out for free?

Christine Koh (00:09:29):

I have a weekly free and then biweekly paid.

Doug (00:09:32):

Okay. And that formula is working?

Christine (00:09:34):

It's working. Yeah. It's what I have capacity for.

Doug (00:09:36):

Oh good. I noticed too, you have a lot more ads on the podcast.

Christine (00:09:41):

Oh yeah. I joined a network this year. I don't know if you know Meg Ables and Amy Wilson of What Fresh Hell. But it's their network. So now somebody takes care of it all for me, which is delightful.

Doug (00:09:52):

Oh yeah. I'm not surprised that the two of them are becoming moguls.

Christine (00:09:55):

Yeah.

Doug (00:09:56):

I've known Amy for about 30 years. She was actually an actress in New York. I posted a picture of us. We were at a mutual friend's party on the Upper West Side and I had a full head of hair and redeye <laugh> <laugh>. So anyway, I wanted to introduce you to Christine Koh. This is Magda Pecsenye, for now.

Christine (00:10:14):

Hello.

Magda (00:10:15):

Hi “for now.” I'm getting married and I'm changing my name. Which has been a whole magillah. I don't know. It's a big deal. Yeah, it's a big deal. I had a little breakdown there in the office when I got my marriage license on Monday. And part of the license is what your name is going to be after you're married, and so I had a little moment of like, “oh my God, I'm going to have a different last name. What the hell?”

Doug (00:10:42):

I meant to ask too, Christine, where do you live? What town are you in?

Christine (00:10:46):

I'm just outside of Boston, like six miles. So you know Tufts University? I'm in Medford.

Doug (00:10:51):.

Oh, okay. Well, she's going to be a neighbor to–

Magda (00:10:54):

See. Medford is fun. I'm moving to Natick. Natick is not fun.

Christine (00:10:59):

Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay.

Magda (00:11:01):

I am never leaving Mike's house.

Doug (00:11:03):

<Laugh>.

Magda (00:11:06):

There's a big construction project starting next spring, so I'll get all my house-leaving done this fall. And then as soon as the construction project starts, I am never going to leave his house or his neighborhood.

Doug (00:11:21):

This podcast, in many ways, is about all the preparation we did to get to 50, so this makes perfect sense for two reasons for you. One, you're about to turn 50, which Magda did in February, but you are also the author of one of the most famous pivots in the blogging community as far as what you spent your early life preparing to do versus how you make your living now.

Christine (00:11:53):

Indeed.

Doug (00:11:55):

And that's always been a very intriguing story. And you get to tell it again for Magda's benefit, 'cause I'd love to hear more about …

Magda (00:12:02):

Well, why doesn't she tell it again for the listeners' benefit? It's not just the three of us here!

Doug (00:12:08):

Oh, right.

Magda (00:12:09):

I want you to start by telling us your name and, sort of, what you do.

Christine (00:12:15):

Okay. Okay. 

Magda (00:12:16):

How you exist in the world.

Christine (00:12:18):

Sure. Well, I'm Christine Koh and thank you for inviting me to your show. I always love being in conversation with other podcasters, so this is fun. And Magda, I'm really glad to finally meet you. I feel like we've been in a large overlapping Venn diagram, but have not yet come together in the center. So here we are. 

I used to identify as a music and brain scientist. I spent a decade in academia. My last pit stop on that track was a very fancy-sounding triple appointment at Mass General Hospital, MIT, and Harvard Medical School. And I had finished all that fancy training and then decided to leave the field both because I was a very good scientist, but I didn't feel like I had the passion for it that was required to really slog it out as a junior faculty member on the tenure track.

And I also was at a crossroads. I was a new mom, my dad was dying, and I really was thinking about what I wanted my work life to be like, because I love working <laugh> and I love being creative and I wasn't really enjoying that time. I was taking away from my family to go downtown and be a scientist. So that was my big jumping-off point. I was so stressed that my hair was falling out, which seemed like a good sign that it was time to leap. And so I did. So for the past 17 years, I've built this career mostly based on instinct and with a definite passion for both finding creative holes that I feel like exist, like the things that I wish I could see in the world, and then figuring out how to fill them because I'm a problem solver. I'm a creative person. So I have a kind of multi-hyphen situation, but I guess I identify as a writer and author, speaker, creative director and consultant, designer, and a podcaster, of course <laugh>. All of it is linked by this desire to help people solve problems and to figure out ways to make life more joyful. And even if it's the tiny moments and you still feel like a complete dumpster fire, I feel like there's agency in all the moments.

Doug (00:14:35):

And that I think is an important point because as a brand, as Christine Koh, the person you come across as one of the most put-together people <laugh>, you know what I mean?

Christine (00:14:46):

I guess. I mean, I'm very honest about being a dumpster fire <laugh>.

Doug (00:14:49):

Yeah, exactly. And that's a really important revelation that people who come across as completely locked-in are sometimes completely not. And I didn't realize your mom was born in Japan.

Christine (00:15:02):

Indeed. She was. Yes. You've done your homework <laugh>.

Doug (00:15:05):

Yeah. So I think being the child of the father whom you describe as terrifying and the mother who has a work ethic like none other because she's now found English as a third language, I think that's a really interesting discussion as well. Yo talk about these forces that formed you and then the courage it took to present to those two people that you weren't going to follow through on the brain science. How much of your current existence do you think was even on your radar when you were 30?

Christine (00:15:37):

Let's see, I think I had my first kid at 31. I have an 18-year-old, so my kids are pretty far apart. They're six and a half years apart. And I don't think I was really thinking about anything concretely, though. I will say I did grow up in a multi-generational household and I'm one of seven kids, which is significant and complicated and also can be wonderful. And it probably at that point as a little kid felt sort of annoying and like something else I had to do <laugh>. But I wasn't really thinking about it concretely, even as a young adult or as a 30-year-old.

Doug (00:16:41):

We should also add that your parents are immigrants. So what was that household like when you've got your immigrant parents and your grandparents who came over, ostensibly afterward, in terms of forming your idea of what parenting is and what caregiving is?

Christine (00:17:00):

Well, it was, in the broadest strokes, complicated, sometimes very scary, patriarchal <laugh>. It wasn't, you know, I was the, the sixth of seven children, the fourth of five girls. And there wasn't a lot of space for one's voice anyway, because it was a very “don't ask questions, follow the rules” kind of environment. I mean, we kind of used to joke that we were the Von Trapps, but like the Korean version, we didn't quite respond to a whistle, but we did have to fall into line. We did in fact sing Edelweis in harmony at my dad's funeral. You know, there were <laugh>, there were some parallels. And so it was difficult and I think that there was a considerable amount of trauma I dealt with in that family system. And it bled over into other parts of my life. So, I think I grew up really in this learned framework of compliance and silence and “be a good Asian and don't make noise” and the men dominate the conversation. And so I've spent a lot of my adult life unwinding that. And I think that is why I am so passionate now about using my voice to, you know, dismantle patriarchy and other things and to really help other people find their voice as well.

Doug (00:18:22):

So do you think that fueled the whole idea to leave academia, and become what you really wanted to be? That must've been a conversation with your parents.

Christine (00:18:30):

I was definitely not the rebellious one. I mean, I still … birth order is a funny thing, and it's, I don't know really how scientific any of it is, but a lot of people meet me and are kind of like, “oh, are you the firstborn?” I don't know if that means I'm bossy or directive or what. But I mean, my passion for academia was very pure and very true. I went to an incredible liberal arts college. You know, my dream was to go off and become a professor so I could come back and teach at Wheaton. And it's worth noting that I think because of how much I was struggling as a kid, nobody believes this, but I was a terrible, terrible student, like C and D student except for music classes where I got A’s.

So it wasn't until I went to college and had some space and also had the ability to go into deep subject matter, which is definitely where my optimal brain space lives versus broad coursework. It wasn't until then that I really found my footing and started to thrive. So I wanted to be that trusted mentor for other students. So, you know, things were so bad by that point. My dad had actually died. And it was really quite remarkable because when I decided to make the leap and I talked to my mother about it, I was worried, I was worried she was going to say, “but Christine, you're already a doctor and you spent all this time invested in this” and blah, blah, blah. And she said, the one thing that I suspect every Asian kid wants to hear their parents say, but doesn't actually think they'll ever hear, which is “I just want you to be happy.” You know, I think she had seen so much hardship in her life and she just wanted her kids to land in a good place. So I feel very lucky that that was my experience.

Doug (00:20:21):

So she trusted you to find your own happiness?

Christine (00:20:33):

For sure. And I mean, I think it probably helped that, you know, she and my dad didn't exactly understand what I did. The big joke was that, you know, I was in music cognition. Nobody really understood what that was. So my parents would just tell everybody I was a child psychologist, which was pretty funny. <Laugh>, that was like the one kind of psychology they really understood. And even now, I think what I do is a little abstract to her, although it was more real once she was actually a guest on my podcast and she got to see that part of my life. And, you know, she's seen some of my articles in the Boston Globe and things. So some of that she understands. But this world as a creative strategic consultant we don't even get into that <laugh>. But I mean, her main thing is she wants her kids to be happy. She wants them to be settled. She wants them, I mean, really what she wants them to do is to find Jesus. But you know, we can all wish for something. <laugh>.

Doug (00:21:25):

Do you think it helped that she had so many children that she was able to kind of release a little more control? Because if you're their only child, then wow, there's all the attendant, all the energy poured into one person.

Christine (00:21:36):

That's a good question. I really don't know. I mean, I think she frets about all of her kids equally. So <laugh>, I don't really know. Okay.

Doug (00:21:44):

The standard procedure is you take, you know, 3 billion pictures of your first child.

Christine (00:21:50):

Yeah, no, we Koreans have a good capacity for fretting. So <laugh>

Doug (00:21:55):

Yeah. It's just more than hand-me-downs and like, “oh, we have a picture of the six kids somewhere here under the doormat.” Why did your mom move from Japan?

Christine (00:22:07):

You know, her family had been there living there when she was born. And she ended up coming back to Korea, but I forget exactly how many years she lived there. But then she ended up coming back to Korea for school. And so she grew up learning to speak Japanese in order to be able to function in early education and then had to learn Korean when she came to Korea to go to boarding school. So, she is my inspiration in so many ways. And that is one of them. I'm trying to learn Korean on Duolingo again. I learned the language the first time, or started to, back in my 20s when my husband and I lived outside of Washington DC and I took lessons at the Korean Embassy. And back then, like, I don't know, I was, all I was doing was writing a dissertation, so <laugh>. So I had enough brain space and I was able to converse in simple conversation and write letters to my parents. And then it all fell out of my brain. And I'm trying to learn it again now. And it is a struggle. So <laugh>, I have a lot of appreciation for her capacity to pick up English and then Korean in her twenties when she came here.

Doug (00:23:22):

Thomas, our son who lives here, we're big fans of Korean food. And boy, the hottest gochujang is going, you will see through time. <laugh>. But we're also big fans of doenjang, the umami paste to the soy paste, which I put in my lasagna. It's so good. We have a lot of Korean fusion stuff with doenjang in it. <Laugh>.

Magda (00:24:06):

I thought you were going to say that you guys were learning Korean or something like that.

Doug (00:24:11):

Well, I learned Korean just phonetically. 'cause I realized when I got to Seoul that all the subway placards were bilingual. And that's when I learned that the symbols of Korean language are all phonetic.

Magda (00:25:04):

<Laugh>. Well, all I know is when the pandemic happened, I got really stupid and really confused and on this like, heritage tour. And my background is part German, part Norwegian, and part Hungarian. And then when the pandemic started, I got the chance to take Hungarian language lessons and like a complete dumbass, I bit. So I have now been taking <laugh> Hungarian lessons for three years, and have almost gotten a foothold in the simple present tense and <laugh> it's just, it's the most traumatizing hour of my week every week <laugh> still. And I'm thinking I should have gone with, I should have gone with Korean.

Doug (00:26:13):

So one of the things you mentioned about when your father passed 18 years ago, how much was in place in terms of getting affairs in order and so forth?

Christine (00:26:24):

Nothing was in place. And I mean, it's hard to imagine that some kind of end of life planning or estate planning wasn't on the radar because, you know, my parents had seven kids at various points. They had different rental properties. Like it was quite stressful to get to a point where he was really like, this was it. And you know, his wishes really weren't clear. So that was, that was not the greatest. And I will say that I actually had a wonderful sort of end-of-life period with him because he and my mom were supposed to be my childcare solution after I went back to my post-doc after my maternity leave. This was the end of–I guess this would've been going back to work–January, 2005.

And he got very sick. Like his health took a bad turn. And so I decided at that point, well, I don't even really want to go back to work full-time that much. So I'm going to see if I can adjust my schedule to go back part-time at this point so I can spend more time with my parents. 'Cause I didn't really know how much time my dad had and everything was very unclear and confusing. So it ended up being kind of amazing because over the next six or seven months, I was over at my parents’ a few times a week. I brought them sandwiches. They kind of delighted. We grew into this routine where they really enjoyed, they almost always ate Korean, but if I was going to bring food, they wanted to know what was up with my American cooking and what I was making.

And so they started placing orders for their favorite sandwiches that I made. Just, I don't know, whatever. It was really funny. They just wanted to know what was coming out of my kitchen. So I would bring my new baby, and he would laugh at my mom fails. I mean, it was really quite wonderful. And I saw, you know, as I mentioned and as you had pointed out, he was a quite a terrifying person when I was a little person. And now as an adult, I got to see this much softer, gentle, funny, charming side of him. You know, I would see him with his nursing staff and the PT people and he was so charming and we got to just talk about everyday stuff instead of how I might be disappointing him in some broad way <laugh>. So it was really quite amazing.

Death is hard. And I think any kind of health crisis brings out a lot for people. And when you have seven siblings and people have different relationships and different levels of finished or unfinished business, I mean, it's stirred up a lot. It was very, very chaotic and very difficult. But I will say that after that I felt very committed to talking to my mom about making her wishes really clear. And I said to her very clearly, ”Listen, you can leave everything to the church. I don't care what you choose to do, I just care that your wishes are executed the way you want them to be. You've worked really hard. Whatever is left, you know, figure out what you want to do with it and get it on paper with a lawyer.” And she has been incredible in that respect. She has gotten her paperwork in order. She is like on the big declutter. Like every time I go over there, she's trying to hand me a Korean vessel or something to try <laugh> to try to empty out her house <laugh>.

It is one of the hardest conversations I think I hear a lot from my Edit Your Life listeners actually, that they would like me to put out more content about how to deal with aging parents and how to have these hard, hard conversations. And what if they don't, you know, what if they need assisted living but don't want to go into assisted living? There are so many conversations that we need to be happening, which is why I'm glad you two are doing the show. I mean, this is coming. Like, this is life, this is adulting and it's hard and it's going to be harder if we avoid it and don't deal with it. And then we're faced with it.

Doug (00:30:35):

Yeah. Remember those discussions 20 years ago about diapers and how high stakes we thought those were?

Christine (00:30:40):

<Laugh> Please. I know, I know. I cared about so much that was just not worth caring about <laugh>

Doug (00:30:46):

My work with sponsors, too, was along those lines, too, Sponsors didn't really want to hear much about this aspect for the long term, the marathon of parenting, especially when the marathon becomes two-sided. And you've got, I'm killing this metaphor, but I mean, when the marathon <laugh> the marathon leads you into the sandwich and you've got an aging mom and you've got, you know, a 12-year-old daughter.

Magda (00:31:11):

Part of it is that we have been so present in the moment with our kids that we're really as on top of that part of the sandwich as it could be possible to be. And we just largely have been blindsided by our parents fading out. And I think about this a lot. Like, how did we not know? I have been in active perimenopause for a long time. It feels like about 60 or 70 years <laugh>. And it's really been since July <laugh> since I was 42, the summer after I was 42, I just like slammed into perimenopause.

I'm active in a perimenopause group and a lot of what we talk about is just, what a shame it is that our mothers and our grandmothers were not able to talk about these things with each other. And a side effect of that is that they never talked to us. And so a lot of us just spent like the first two or three years of perimenopause thinking we were losing our minds entirely, and then just stumbling upon this like, “oh no, this is completely normal.” Like your eyes might fuzz out. You might get blurry vision for three days a month. How did we not get any kind of generational knowledge and insights about the aging process? Was I just not paying attention? But it feels like nobody our age was paying attention and our parents weren't telling us what was happening.

Christine (00:33:01):

Maybe it was just too much. You know, I didn't really think of the fact that my parents didn't have much, and they had seven kids and yet they always opened their home to immigrating relatives. We always had either my grandparents or a rotating cast of different cousins and uncles and aunts who would live with us until they found their place. And I think with my parents, they were probably too busy. I mean, we didn't even have conversations about basic puberty and hygiene. Like there were, there were no conversations happening. So one about aging and sandwich generation, that just wasn't happening.

Doug (00:33:36):

Your mom had five daughters, you have two daughters. But their experience in your family must be very different from your experience in your family. I mean, what specific changes did you make, do you think, when you bring your daughters into the world, and how you want them to see themselves versus how you saw yourself and your family dynamic?

Christine (00:34:00):

Oh, well, I mean, I think, like many parents of daughters or those who identify as daughters, I want them to feel like they have everything, you know, any possibility. And I want them to have a realistic lens on the world. So for example, you know, when my daughter, my older one was applying to college, that was a time where a lot of stuff was happening at a state level regarding reproductive rights and access. And I was like, “Hmm, well, we better think about where you're going to go to school and perhaps adjust your choices. God forbid if something happens and you need emergency care and can't get it.” You know, these are the kind of realistic conversations that I want to have with my kids and that I do have with my kids. Not to scare them, but I want them to understand both what is possible and also the systemic issues that are in front of them because I want them to have a realistic view of the world.

You know, I was very naive growing up and I mean, it resulted in terrible things like me being sexually harassed by a middle school teacher and a high school teacher and not being able to tell anybody. I mean, I do not want them to be in positions like that. So we have a lot of honest conversations. I don't try to pump them up unrealistically about girl power. I just talk to them really openly and honestly about everything.

Doug (00:35:28):

And where does your older daughter's interest in science come from? Do you think that was, did you encourage her in that? Did she find her own path that way and how, how have you–

Christine:

No. 

Doug:

<Laugh> Okay.

Christine (00:35:39):

Yeah. I'm only smiling on the side because I like to joke that I'm like the least Tiger Mom tiger mom. I did not <laugh> encourage, I mean force, my kids to play musical instruments, even though I was a semi-professional trained violinist myself. I mean, I was in a union and performed with a city orchestra when I was in grad school. 

Doug (00:35:58):

Another layer to the excellence of Christine Koh, by the way.

Christine (00:36:01):

Oh, I don't know. It's something. 

Doug (00:36:03):

It's more than nothing <laugh>.

Christine (00:36:07):

Yeah. Thank you. Well, but I didn't push them towards that. I have really, really just wanted them to find what they're excited about. I mean, I think my husband and I differ on this, but if my kids were like, “I don't think college is the right path for me. I'm really more excited about this,” I would be like, well go for that thing. Maybe all the push and push around academia on my side growing up as, you know, in a family of Korean immigrants. Like, I think I try to go the other way sometimes, but Laurel's very smart. She loves science. She, when she did her freshman year, I really encouraged her to keep her mind open to other classwork and fields. And at the end of the year, she came back and still said, I love science. And she's working full-time at a, you know, a lab that does stuff related to DNA that I have no idea about. And she's happy. So I shall just continue to support her in this journey.

Magda (00:37:08):

You can just tell people she's a child psychologist.

Christine (00:37:11):

I will! A DNA psychologist. Yeah.

Magda (00:37:14):

<Laugh>

Doug (00:37:15):

And only you would say like, “oh, you want to go into science? Well just make sure you have a backup.” <Laugh>.

Christine (00:37:26):

I remember going to college and you just go and you're undecided and you decide maybe sophomore year what you're going to study. And the way things are done now where people declare before they go in, that just seems bonkers to me. Like, how do you know it? She entered college at age 17. Like, how are we expecting kids who are 17 and 18 to know what they want to do for their, you know, college career? It seems wild to me.

Magda (00:37:59):

I was thinking about what you said earlier that you were a bad student, that you were a C and D student and yet you still got into Wheaton and had the chance to go there. I don't know if that is a possibility for kids anymore. I don't think colleges have the leeway to look at the kids' potential. They have to look at the kids' list of accomplishments because there's so many applicants to the highly rejective colleges. I mean, I now I don’t think I could've gotten into my undergrad. I just, I mean, I wasn't that accomplished.

Christine (00:38:53):

Yeah. 

Doug (00:38:55):

I think you absolutely would've. Just as a side note.

Magda (00:39:01):

Okay. But part of why I got into college was 'cause I was diversity because I was coming from Toledo, Ohio.

Christine (00:39:22):

<Laugh>, I do agree with you that, I mean, college is harder to get into. Wheaton is harder to get into, I don't know if I would've back with my scores back then. I'm sure I would not have gotten in today that said, you know, it's a school of back then it was like maybe 1200 people. So with a smaller school, I think the admissions department can probably pay more attention because on my acceptance letter, there was a handwritten note from the admissions dean or officer or what, whatever their title was. And he wrote me a note saying how much he appreciated my essay and enjoyed my essay. And it probably didn't hurt that I was Asian because it was not a very diverse school at the time. I do think that they were willing to take a risk on a student like me because of whatever it was I wrote, which I can't even remember now what I wrote. But I probably, I've always been identified as communicating myself most fully through writing. So I guess I did it back then.

Doug (00:40:25):

She totally Alexander Hamilton-ed it.

Christine (00:40:28):

<Laugh> <laugh>.

Doug (00:40:31):

When you went to high school, I imagine there weren't a whole lot of people who looked like you.

Christine (00:40:35):

Oh, there were not. There were not. 

Doug (00:40:37):

What was that like? I mean, in terms of even, I mean, most of the kids you went to high school with probably didn't, couldn't tell the difference between Japanese culture and Korean culture.

Christine (00:40:47):

I mean, I think it was by that point it just wasn't even talked about. But as a telling measure, and I grew up in what is considered an affluent prime suburb of Boston. It's called Belmont. And my first experience of direct racism was in first grade at the hands of my first grade teacher. My second was maybe a year later when I was walking with my mom and we were assaulted. We had things thrown at us by a carload of teenage boys. So my introduction to racism and, and the first grade teacher, we all had to share our middle names at circle time. And she humiliated me over mine, which is Korean, which resulted in me not being able to say my middle name for another 20 years. So I think those early formative moments really were shocking to me. They were mostly confusing actually back then. I think confusing that I was being made fun of for something that was not in my control and was just part of who I was. And I think it contributed to me trying to just desperately assimilate and not have my Asian-ness be the thing that people would make judgments about or make decisions about, even though it was obviously impossible to hide.

Sorry about that downer. <laugh>

Doug (00:42:11):

<Laugh>. I love the fact that you discussed it. I thank you for that. I was hesitant because I mean, the idea of what you look like and going to college is in the news right now, now that affirmative action is off the table for the moment. Again, when I think about the difference in the generations, we should say too, your husband is not Asian. And your daughters are half and half and don't have an Asian last name.

Christine (00:42:36):

Yes.

Doug (00:42:37):

Clearly they do have an Asian heritage that presents. And what discussions have you had with them about how they move through the world and what their experience getting into college will be?

Christine (00:42:51):

We certainly talk about it. They have my last name as their middle names. That was important to me because mostly from a logistical standpoint, because I didn't want to, for example, get to an airport and have people question whether they were actually my children. I wanted to have it documented. Which ended up being useful because that did happen on one trip. So, I mean, this is still the world we're living in, so we've always talked about it. I think they both love being Asian or they say they do <laugh> and you know, it's a very strong piece of their culture, but not an overbearing way. They just, they know it's part of them, you know, and they love me and they know my experiences. My younger one knows about some of the harder things that I've had to deal with. And, you know, we talk about it in an age-appropriate way in the context of caring about people as people. Because ultimately I feel like that's the best thing you can try to do as a parent, right. Like raise your kids to care and be compassionate.

Magda (00:43:53):

Christine, do your siblings live in the area? Like, I'm wondering if this care of your father as he was dying and of your mother now is sort of distributed? And is it distributed among all seven of you? Or how is that working?

Christine (00:44:09):

Well, like anything, it's a little complicated. All of us except one, my oldest brother, all of us live in Massachusetts. I mean, I think, you know, people contribute as they contribute. It is worth noting that recently this year, just about four months ago, my mom had a very bad accident that resulted in some broken things, and my siblings, most of them, one of my brothers is kind of out of the picture, but the rest of us have really been active participants in her recovery. And it's been kind of great because it's a much different experience than 18 years ago where I suspect people were probably judging each other at some level for whatever they were or were not doing.

And at one point when somebody was apologizing on the family text thread for not being able to do x, y, or z, I said, let's just all accept <laugh> that everyone is doing what they can, and whatever it is that you can do is great. And I think it was a really great leveling moment. You know, for example, one of my oldest brothers, he lives out of state, but he's working entirely remote and he was able to adjust his life and come stay with her 24/7 for five weeks, which was unreal for the rest, like, just incredibly helpful for the rest of us because she did, after getting out of rehab, need people around. Like, we were very worried and we had started with a rotating cast of overnights on aero beds that were leaking air and other things <laugh>, but <laugh>. But, you know, it was great. I think people really pulled up like the initial wave was very stressful. My family is great in a crisis, like this generation is really great at jumping in, but it can also be a lot. So I had to wrestle with my own feelings about how people were showing up and also embrace the fact that how they were showing up was just fine. <Laugh>.

Magda (00:46:15):

That's wonderful. And it's kind of, it's interesting to me that this is the third conversation we've had about elder care and it's all been different extremes. Like we talked to Asha, who is an only child. Now we're talking to you, that has a larger-than-average sibling group and it doesn't sound like everybody's at everybody's throats. And then the podcast that we just put up was two sibling groups that were married to each other and doing elder care. So—that makes it sound weird, doesn't it? Two sibling groups that were married to each other. It makes it sound a little ILBP, a little Bill Gothard. My friend is married to her husband and my friend's brother is married to my friend's husband's sister, so.

Christine (00:47:07):

Wow. I think the other thing worth noting in this situation with my mom in particular is she is unusual and completely inspirational in her level of commitment to betterment. And I I will say over these, over these four months, and I honestly, I mean, I made a joke about Jesus earlier and embracing Jesus, but I do think her faith propels her in a way that is kind of next-level. And her, you know, her curiosity and commitment to health and her, a number of healthcare professionals in her journey over the last four months have said, “we have never seen a patient like this. She is motivated. She needs to be told to slow down, to not push as hard” because she wants to get better. You know, she jokes in her kind of English way, “I just like to have a really fast way of living!” <laugh>.

Christine (00:48:02):

And what she means, what she means is she wants to be at full speed. She wants to be running to H-Mart on her own. She wants to go to Whole Foods, she wants to zip to church and do all these things. And having to rely on people was hard. That was really hard. On the other hand, I think she's loved how much she's gotten to see her children over the last four months. You know, I'm over there dropping off vegetables and taking out her trash and bringing baked goods and everybody's visiting in their different ways and I think she loves that. So it's kind of a mixed bag.

Doug (00:48:31):

Yeah. She's going to break things more often.

Christine (00:48:33):

<Laugh>,

Doug (00:48:35):

Has she changed much since your father died? I mean, you talk about a patriarchal culture and she's been a widow on her own now for 18 years. Do you think that was kind of a blossoming time in a way for her to just kind of exist in the world, not so much as your father's spouse, but as her own person?

Christine (00:48:53):

Well, I mean, probably somewhat, but I think that it was a patriarchal culture, yes. But it was the classic situation of like, she was running the show <laugh> behind the scenes. Like she was doing the books, she was managing the business, you know, she always, let my father have that center spotlight and he was always at the front, but she was always the person getting things done. So it was not like she was, you know, helpless or at her wit's end. She just had the ability to really live her life in the way that she wanted to. You know, the big thing being her faith and the fact that my dad was not religious and was really not into church things. And so for her to be able to live fully, you know, in her church community, that has been pretty awesome.

I actually brought her to a baptism. It was kind of a big deal, it was her first time going back to the church. And I feel a little bit teary just thinking about it, but I brought her up on the steps of this stage in this church to where the tub was. She was clutching my arm really tight, and just seeing the faces of her community turn around and just light up when they realized she was there. And just, they were like swarming around her. And by virtue of her clutching my arm, I had all these adorable Korean people who were very emotional swarming around me. It was just incredible.

Doug (00:50:28):

So, how much do you hope to pattern your extended life after her in that way?

Christine (00:50:34):

I mean, I think I put a picture of her in my last, my last Substack essay, and I had somebody say, “I want what she's having.” <laugh> I think I just want to live with that much bright spirit, you know. I don't think she would have the words to articulate it this way, but I do think that she really believes in best intentions and you know, just trying to show up for your community, help with whatever you've got. That's always been a part of her in my dad's mantra. But yeah, I would love to be that bright and spirited and funny and bossy. I mean, even when I was a first, my daughter and I were first responders to her accident <laugh>, and even, you know, she is being taken away on a stretcher in an ambulance, and I see her motioning to the paramedic and he comes over to me and I said,” oh my gosh, what's wrong?” And he said, she told you to not forget to lock the front door. And I <laugh>, I was like, okay, I'm on it. I was already on it, Mom. I already had it, but, okay, thank you.

You know, like I just admire her so much and I feel like I see her a lot more clearly now. Especially, raising two kids is a lot, but I only have two and she had seven and she was dealing with a lot. So I do feel like I have an appreciation and a desire to pattern a lot of what she does, you know, in my future years.

Doug (00:52:04):

Do you ever go to her for advice about your motherhood and she's like, “dude, you've got two kids. What are you complaining about?” <laugh>

Christine (00:52:12):

No, we don't have those kinds of, I mean, we talk a lot and she will certainly offer her opinions, but you know, I think she thinks this generation and the things that we have to worry about and all the attention we have to pay to things is pretty funny. <laugh>

Doug (00:52:27):

Well that helps, I think given what she went through. Yeah. That's kind of a grounding thing.

Christine (00:52:31):

Yeah. She is great and I do appreciate the love that she has for my girls and, you know, the affection that's there. It's awesome because, you know, even with my grandparents living with us, they didn't speak English and I didn't speak Korean, so we only communicated in gestures, and the simplest of greetings. So the fact that she and my girls can communicate is never lost on me. I think about that a lot, actually.

Doug (00:53:01):

Yeah. I think having young kids in your life keeps you young. Especially if you can add a little snail mucus.

Christine (00:53:08):

Always. Oh my gosh, I love that you remembered that, Doug. Magda, snail mucin and rubbing it all over your face is a very popular Korean product.

magda (00:53:16):

Oh, yeah. I actually have a moisturizer with snail mucin in it! <Laugh>

Christine (00:53:21):

Of course, they're everywhere. <Laugh>. 

Doug (00:53:23):

It doesn't surprise me at all. That's, you know, you brought more emoluments and supplements and additives into the home over the years …

Magda (00:53:33):

<Laugh>. Yeah. Every time I'm at, every time I'm at Doug's house, I'm like, “here, let me pull out my bag of potions.”

Christine (00:53:39):

<Laugh>.

Magda (00:53:42):

And I try to get Doug to use them too.

Doug (00:53:45):

Well, I have to some extent for sure. <Laugh>

Magda (00:53:49):

“To some extent,” yes 

Doug (00:53:50):

Yes. I can tell you now, I'm not going back. I have been drinking turmeric in my coffee.

Christine (00:53:55):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Doug (00:53:57):

My arthritis is feeling better. Yeah. So now every morning it's a combination of turmeric, ginger, cinnamon, and pepper.

Christine (00:54:06):

You just sprinkle the spices in your coffee?

Doug (00:54:09):

Yeah, I make a standing mix. I have an old cayenne pepper tin full of this mixture. Put in half a tablespoon, pour the coffee over it.

Christine (00:54:17):

Dang. Okay.

Doug (00:54:19):

And it's working.

Christine (00:54:19):

I think you should make a little Instagram card with that recipe and then go viral online.

Doug (00:54:24):

See you are thinking like a content creator. So, you were Boston Mamas forever ….

Christine (00:54:31):

Oh my gosh, yes. 

Doug (00:54:33):

And you mentioned that that's a past chapter now, and you moved on to Substack. What kind of, given your experience, massive experience in social media and your desire to create at a specific level, how did you happen to choose CK and how did you choose to go into the “there's always a story” brand and kind of leave Boston Mamas behind?

Christine (00:54:54):

So Boston Mamas, that was my first, back in 2006, foray into the internet. It was really a ripe time. That was like the time around, actually, it was around that time that Parent Hacks by Asha (Dornfest) was started. A lot of blogs were popping then. And it became very successful. I mean, I think many people have referred to it as sort of a pioneer in the hyperlocal model, and there were a lot of kind of sites that modeled that following. I ran it for a long time. It was only until last year that I officially, you know, shut it down. I mean, it still lives as an archive, but I'm no longer posting at it. And it was kind of a relief. I mean, I was sort of like, I'd been providing this resource and lifestyle portal for so long, and I just was tired of needing to be in the know about things. <laugh>. I didn't want to be in the know anymore.

And also, personal essays weren't really a fit there. I mean, I kind of forced them to fit sometimes, but they weren't really, that's not where they should live. And so I had been thinking about Substack for a long time. I had been seeing many OG people jump onto it. And then one weekend I was like, you know, this would be just the perfect thing for me. Like, I feel like I could express myself there. There's discovery, there's community. I was always thinking about how I'm always telling a story of some kind, and there's always a backstory to any story. And so I just kind of thought of the name. I texted my friend Paige, who's like, oh, I've known since sixth grade. And I asked her what she thought about the title.

And she's like, yes. And so I said, great. Okay, I'll start it. So I started it in like a weekend with no particular editorial plan. And it has been an absolute delight and the perfect fit for the type of writing that I am really drawn to these days, which is personal. It's connective. One of the comments I often got is that people say that I can either articulate what is rolling around in their head, but they can't quite get out, or that I help them see themselves a little more clearly and what a gift it is. <Laugh> Those comments like that are just such an incredible gift. And I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to tell a story and tell it authentically and with all the ugliness and appreciation for life and multidimensional nature that is being human.

Doug (00:57:19):

And now Edit Your Life is your own baby. Now that Asha has respectfully crossed over.

Christine (00:57:26):

It is. It is. Yeah. We started that in, I want to say 2015. And she was, you know, we had written Minimalist Parenting together. I'm always thinking about the next thing, right? The next creative hole. And I knew even while we were finishing our edits, I thought to myself, man, so much of this is applicable outside of parenting. There are other things to talk about and dig into. And so not long after we had submitted our manuscript, I asked her about starting a podcast. And so we started that and had five amazing years together.

And then, you know, her life was pretty tumultuous for a while. And so it just was the right stopping point for her which was sad, but the sendoff was pretty awesome. Like there were so many beautiful, I had cast out in the community for thoughts about Asha, and I got to surprise her by reading them on the air. And that probably wasn't fair. I probably shouldn't have done that to her. I should have let her prepare herself. But it was awesome. I will say a little, like, insecure worried Christine Koh. I was like, “oh my gosh, is anybody going to come to this party after Asha's not here?” But it's been <laugh> a really fantastic journey to do the podcast solo. And I I love it. There's still so many conversations I want to have and things I want to talk about. So it's been really great.

Doug (00:58:48):

Well, I thought it was a very prescient idea. I think you guys were talking about sparking joy long before, what'shername <laugh>. But over the course of these eight years, how have your discussions evolved in terms of the importance of editing your life and the information you've learned from the people you've talked to?

Christine (00:59:06):

Asha and I from the very beginning have talked about the importance of baby steps and, you know, finding, tuning into what matters to you. Those are overarching tenets that will always be there. I would say in the last couple years that my lens has further refined, kind of because of how I felt during the pandemic and some personal things that I was going through that were very difficult. And that sort of remained behind the Christine Koh Wall. But I mean, I was in a pretty dark place, not, not even related to pandemic stuff. And I got to a point where I was standing in front of my coffee maker one day, one morning in the dark, crying because I had not set up the coffee the night before so I could just press the On button and <laugh>, I was kind of like, wow, I'm in a really bad place. Like the really micro are completely unraveling me.

But I also, in that moment, had a spark. And I thought, well, conversely, if these tiny little things can unravel me, tiny little things can also, I can tap into them and find agency and find a way to make my life better. And I've also heard from people that they really like to drill down and know my process. So when I immediately said, “oh, you should make an Instagram tile with your morning spice concoction on it,” that's actually a direct reflexive response to the fact that people always want to know exactly my process for what I'm doing. And they, they want to know, they want to like, try something new and try to find a little way to a little hack to make their life better. So I think I've gotten further tuned into how to flip the script and engage a cognitive reframe on life to figure out what those little tiny levers, those tiny moments of self-love, those tiny moments where you can do something and feel like you have a little bit of agency in your life, especially if everything feels like a complete dumpster fire in order to make change and find a moment where you can feel happiness in life. And I think people have really responded to that. I mean, these have been a hard few years. And so that's I guess how my lens has evolved. It's sort of a nuanced tweak, but it's been an important one for me.

Doug (01:01:24):

Well, that speaks a lot to your career and your reputation among all of us who've known you for a long time, and all of your readers who have caught onto you over the years that you do have this “I can take care of this” vibe about you. And so I understand completely that people would consult you and say, you know, “what would Christine do?” I understand if you don't want to share specifics about where you were in that dark place, but I think any, the best example of how you can talk about healing is when you heal yourself or when you, when you self-diagnose where you are in that little mini-trough and how you recalibrated a bit to try and edge up and get back up to an even keel. 

Christine (01:02:17):

Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the funny things that has happened over the past couple years, and I'm just actually right now coming out of a very significant professional transition and another leap where I had to sort of face uncertainty and just be like, it's going to be okay. The funny thing in all of this is that my experimental psychologist side has come out. And so I've become a little bit, I mean, I've delighted in testing my theory. Like, you know, if I definitely engaged in a practice of testing or jotting down what my mood state was in on the nights that I did set up the coffee, or the nights that I didn't, depending on how fragile I was feeling the next morning <laugh>, like there was a lot of nerdiness going on. And even, several months ago when I was really struggling with some professional stuff and very, very unhappy, I was thinking about how I was feeling, which was not well.

And I thought to myself, you know what? It's going to be very soon, six months until I turn 50, and I want to enter that next decade with a level of care for myself that is more reflective of who I want to be. I have a little mini edit called something like “my simple holistic wellness tracker.” I set up a little Google sheet for myself to do a morning assessment on my mood and how my energy was feeling and how my body was feeling, and different detriments and different, you know, beneficial things like water. And so I've been tracking all that stuff to try to keep myself accountable for things. And in it, I pasted a picture of my mom's adorable face because she is my wellness muse <laugh>. So I think my point, and she looks so cute, it's actually a picture from our podcasting session, so she's holding a mic and she looks absolutely adorable.

Doug (01:04:11):

That is a cute shot. Yeah.

Christine (01:04:13):

Yeah. But I think, when I'm in a tough place, I reach for the tangible and for me there is great comfort in tracking data and then seeing things improve in tough times. 

Doug (01:04:30):

Well, you can take the woman outta science <laugh>, but you can't take science outta the woman. Now, do you have discussions with your mom as well, given her faith, do you have discussions about reaching for the tangible versus reaching for the ethereal?

Christine (01:04:49):

I mean, not maybe explicitly, but I mean, she would love it if I would come to church. You know, my husband and I believe in a higher power for sure. But I will say traditional sermons and things like that have never really been my jam. I'm a little like Homer Simpson with the eyes glazing over. So I think if I, if there were a spiritual community, it would just need to be a little different framework. But, you know, certainly she and I do share our “do-er” sort of nature. Like, I never saw her sitting down when I was a kid. And I'm definitely somebody who's always on the move. I'm always doing something. <laugh>

Doug (01:05:26):

<Laugh>. Actually, I wanted to ask one more thing, too, about your family. 'cause we should say also, your husband is a therapist.

Christine (01:05:31):

Oh, he is. Yes.

Doug (01:05:33):

And so to have that dynamic in the family, I mean, granted he works all day working with other patients and so forth …

Magda (01:05:41):

“Other patients,” you say, as if she's one of his patients <laugh>. 

I'm just going to assume that your husband doesn't come from the same kind of immigrant background that you do.

Christine (01:05:51):

My husband is very white, yes. <Laugh>,

Magda (01:05:54):

Like, I'm wondering how it's been between your husband …

Doug:

Your husband is Barry White? <laugh>

Christine (01:05:59):

<laugh> He is my favorite person. And I mean, he came from a much more traditional upbringing. Both of his parents were ministers. You know, he has one brother, very small family. And we often joke about how we both kind of had our own struggles and yet somehow landed together in a similar way. So, I mean, I think as far as being a therapist, he also notably is a career jumper. He went to business school, he was a healthcare consultant, and then he started school very part-time while working full-time the week that my oldest daughter was born. And I remember that most distinctly because after having a C-section, we were coming home, he was soon to go to his first class, and we realized that we had left without the scrip from the nurse for prescription meds. And I guess it hadn't been signed, so he had to run back to Mass General Hospital, try to make it before his class, all this chaos. But at any rate, he's incredible. Possibly the most emotionally fluent man that I've ever known, and also has an incredible ability to compartmentalize his work. So, I mean, I can't help but sometimes overstep a little and try to ask his advice on stuff. But I also am mindful of it. I have my own therapist. <laugh>

I even managed to find the one Asian female therapist about my age—I had to beg her to get off her wait list. But so yeah, I mean, it's a pretty, I feel very fortunate to have somebody who is both tuned into my personal experience and also knows when they only know what they know. And yeah, so I'm really appreciative of him and our relationship and we work through a lot together.

Doug (01:07:55):

Initially, did your folks want you to marry an Asian man? Was that ever an issue? 

Christine (01:08:02):

Oh my gosh, of course. My parents very very much wanted all of us to marry Koreans. I mean, we didn't know any Koreans growing up. Like we literally didn't know any, like, that was a tough ask. Like one might, if one wanted to reflect on that as a parent. But I mean, my parents were sort of broken in by that point because there had been several relationships before me from my siblings. And also I was dating somebody fairly seriously before Jon who they were used to or tolerated <laugh> 

Doug (01:08:40):

You know, well, you know, the ties that bind.

Christine (01:08:41):

But my parents, my parents adored Jon. And I mean, although the funniest thing is, you know, my dad still put him through the paces. I mean, when we got engaged my mom said, well, you're going to have to pretend you're not engaged and ask, you know, Jon, you need to come ask for Christine's hand and be very formal about it. And so we made this trip down and, you know, had already kind of landed on a date and for the wedding and everything. And Jon goes to ask for my hand and my dad says, “Come back and talk to me 10 more times.” <Laugh> like, he was really gaming it, and we were kind of like, on a clock, we don't have time. I'm like, tapping my wrist. I was like, we don't have time for that. So, you know, but they did. They love, you know, my dad really appreciated Jon. My mom loves him, loves him, loves him. So you know, the culture melding has been good. <Laugh>.

Doug (01:09:41):

Oh good. Yeah. Well, I mean, if anybody could make nice with any family, it's Jon Baxter.

Christine (01:09:46):

<Laugh>,

Doug (01:09:47):

What that's worth. He's a good dude. <Laugh>. But Magda, you have another, there's another person who turned 50 this year.

Speaker 5 (01:09:56):

You just can't stop saying that, can you?

Doug (01:09:59):

Well, I mean, I'm just saying I'm living this vicariously 'cause my 50th birthday is old enough to be in second grade at this point.

Magda (01:10:07):

It's true. You're very, very old, Doug. I mean, I don't know how other people feel about it. I had a hard, hard time turning 40, 40 felt like stepping off a cliff. And I think my forties were a really rough decade and turning 50 was just like, oh, yeah. Hey, I'm 50. Okay. So, I'm hoping that it's easy like that for you too, Christine.

Christine (01:10:34):

Yeah, I'm feeling good about it. I think the last thing that I'd like to say, which I think is a message we don't often hear <laugh> out there, is that I've spent the last almost 50 years, very worried, very fearful of scarcity, catastrophizing about being homeless and about financial instability. I mean, I've been on my own since after my freshman year in college where I was told that there was no money for me for college. And it wasn't actually because there was actually no money by that point. I mean, there wasn't a lot of money, but my parents actually said, “Well, Christine, you always seem to figure things out, so we're going to cut you loose <laugh>, and off you go.” 

Doug (01:11:27):

I read that.

Christine (01:11:31):

They did. And they weren't wrong. I mean, I worked 60 hours a week and figured it out. But I think my point is I've adopted this lifestyle of always pressing to the edge as far as time and what I can fit in and what I can do. And while yes, I am an ambitious creative person, I also, in this next chapter, I want more ease. I want life to be simpler. I don't want to always be pushing on the edges. And, you know, I recently resigned from a job that accounted for about 65% of my income last year. And it was just, it got to a point where I reached a breaking point where I was like, you know what? I don't even care that I don't know what's next, but I am trusting in my relationships, my skills. There will be something else for me. But I also want to construct a life that has more breathing room. And I've never really had breathing room in my life. And so the idea that I'm rolling into 50 with this intention towards more space in my life to just be a person is kind of awesome. So I'm like super here for it, <laugh>, and I really encourage people to try. We live in such a striving culture, right? But there are other things to strive for. 

Doug (01:12:57):

I think there's a lot of that going around. We've been striving for a while and thinking, what are we striving for here? And what should we strive for? Now in our third act, or frankly, you know, Magda's grandmother lived to 100, so she still could be only halfway through.

Magda (01:13:10):

Well, 101. And she was really there on top of things until about 96. I remember she was like 89, and she would be like, “Oh, I'm going over to church to help the old people.” And the old people were like 77, like, really?

Christine (01:13:29):

As a symbolic, like, materialistic gesture of my striving for ease mantra in life, I bought myself a straw Korean lady visor. <laugh> It’s incredible, I love it. There's no way you cannot strive for ease when you're wearing this visor. And the amazing thing is, I just recently found a picture of my mom from about 18 years, <laugh>, maybe 17 years ago in a straw visor sitting on the grass laughing. And I was like, this is incredible. I'm going to do the recreation thing where I'm sitting exactly like she is and put them side by side. <Laugh>.

Magda (01:14:04):

That's funny.

Doug (01:14:06):

But when we talk about Edit Your Life, tell us more about where we can find you, what you talk about, and how this latest phase of Christine Koh is going as an online creative.

Christine (01:14:17):

Yeah, it's great. Well, the primary places you can find me are the podcast. It's EditYourLifeShow.com, and the show comes out twice a week. I do like a regular long-form episode on Thursday. And then I now several months ago introduced what I call a mini edit, which is just like a five to eight minute short episode every Monday. So it's kind of like, whether you're in the mood for a snack or a meal, there's always something there for you. And then the other place is my Substack, which is I believe christinekoh.substack.com. And I'm writing there every Tuesday and every other Friday if you're in the paid community. So those have been the main places, and all my stuff is at christinekoh.com. And my favorite place to communicate with people and people love chatting there is Instagram where I'm drchristinekoh.

Doug (01:16:13):

Do you have a favorite bit of inspiration that you've learned over the years? I mean, you must have the information that you've gathered over these years or these interviews, is there anything in particular that stayed with you that you still try to live by?

Christine (01:16:25):

I mean, I think it's probably the big thing. I feel like every conversation at some level comes back to being true to your values. And I think people, sometimes eyeroll when they hear the word “values,” it feels big and it feels hard, but it's not. It's just about really thinking about what you care about. And once you can identify what that is and really hook onto it, that just makes so many more things more easy. You know, you don't get stuck in as many, “oh, well, everybody's doing that, or should I be doing that?” Because if it doesn't line up with your values and who you want to be in the world, then it's really much easier to make those decisions.

So I think every conversation on the show seems to hit that in some way, even if I use the word values or not. So I would encourage people to really think about that, because, you know, we only have one life, right? So we have to think about what we want to do with it, who we want to be, how we want to show up. And it all gets a lot easier if you just stop worrying a bit. You know so much about what other people are doing, and just pay attention to your path.

Doug (01:17:30):

Well, Christine, I could talk to you about this for hours. I've always loved conversations with you whenever we see each other at conferences, and it's so great to see you again. I do love your Substack. I love your podcast and I'm grateful for them both, and I'm really grateful for the time today.

Christine (01:17:47):

Oh, thank you so much. And it was great to connect with you both and Magda to meet you finally at last.

Magda (01:17:51):

Finally at last!

Christine (01:17:52):

For the first time. Yeah, it's long overdue. So finally, the universe has aligned on the proper axis, so thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it.

Doug (01:19:05):

Well thank you very much everybody for listening to episode 10 of the When The Flames Go Up podcast with Magda Pecsenye and me, Doug French. Our guest has been Christine Koh. She's an online creative with a lot of great things to say, and we will link to everything she mentioned in the show notes. We'll be back next week for another discussion of people turning 50 and figuring out what the hell's next. Until then we'll see you soon. Thanks. Bye-bye,

Magda (01:19:32):

<Laugh>.

Doug (01:19:33):

I know, I know.