Episode 23: Transcript

"There was always a moment in every interview when my jaw dropped." - with Michelle Fishburne

Doug French: Okay, we're on.

Magda Elizabeth Pecsenye Zarin: All right, we're there.

Doug: Are we though? Are we there yet?

Magda: Are we there yet?

Doug: Okay, so I need clarification on this. This is the conversation that a very curious world needs to observe.

Magda: Okay.

Doug: You're telling me Mike returned some Halloween candy over the weekend.

Magda: Oh, yes, he did. Mike went out and bought three bags of Kit Kats to give out.

Doug: So he didn't just return any candy, he returned Kit Kats?

Magda: Kit Kats.

Doug: Kit Kats are superior candy.

Magda: But Kit Kats are also his daughter's favorite Halloween candy. So he, he opened one bag and dumped it into a you know, like a pumpkin shaped thing.

Doug: Sure. Yeah.

Magda: Yeah. The grab bucket. And I don't believe in leaving a bucket out for kids to take candy themselves because I want to see their costumes.

Like for me, it's like I want to hand you the candy because I think it's nice.

Right.

Doug: So and I don't trust you not to take all of them into your bag and scamper.

Magda: We also got a lot of younger kids, but I realized that like, I'm way, way, way past the age, I think I'm like, 15 years past the age of having any idea who most of these kids are dressed as, right? And you ask them who they're, “oh, who are you going as?” And they're like, “Oh, blah, blah, blah, from blah, blah, blah.” It's like, I've never heard of blah, blah, blah, let alone blah, blah, blah, right? So, okay. We have our last trick or treater and turn out the light. And there are like three or four pieces of candy left in the bucket. And I'm like, “Oh, great, we've got these other two bags.” So then he takes the bags that have not been opened. And he says, “Oh, great, I can return these.” And I thought he was joking.

Doug: So is that how they ended up getting returned? Because I can imagine so many barriers for someone to say, no, Mike, you don't return candy and you can't return candy.

Magda: I did not know that if you return it to the store, they can't sell it again, they have to throw it away. Because it wasn't for Mike about the money, right? It was that he feels like there was excess and we didn't need the excess. In the pantry, the things that we have in the pantry are

interesting to me and the things we don't have in the pantry are interesting to me too. Like, I always have coconut milk on hand, canned coconut milk. He doesn't. If I'm in the store, I'm like, are we out of coconut milk? He's like, well, what are we going to make with it? Like for him, it just very much has to match up. Right? Like there has to be a use for everything. So it just didn't occur to him that there would be any reason to have it in the house. But I think if he had known that it was going to be destroyed and wasted, he wouldn't have necessarily returned it. But I didn't know that it was destroyed either or else I would have told him had I had any idea what was going on. I would have at the beginning of the night just “accidentally” opened all three bags and put them in the pumpkin.

Doug: Would you ever buy pre-owned candy?

Magda: It was a sealed bag. There were two sealed bags.

Doug: Right, but you know, people are not to be trusted. People are just injecting stuff.

Magda: What do you think it's injected with?

Doug: I don't know, but I would never, I mean, I'm just working this out in my mind, right? Because if you're going to resell it, you'd have to say, oh, by the way, this is gently used pre-owned candy.

Magda: It's all very interesting.

Doug: I'm surprised the store even took it. Why didn't the store just say, yeah, you bought this, freeze it, give it to your daughter, find some other use for it, work out your matrix, buddy.

Magda: The upside is I've married somebody who feels like there's a concept that is “excess Halloween candy.”

Doug: Here's a good segue point then. So we're talking to Michelle Fishburne this week.

Magda: Yes.

Doug: Who is a happy nomad.

Magda: Yes.

Doug: So when you were talking to her about her RV lifestyle, here's the question, right? How do you feel the two of you would fare if you decided to become RVers? Because that's what I was thinking during the whole conversation. I'd be fine on my own like she is, but if you're a couple, how do you survive driving around the world in a bus?

Magda: Well, see, the thing is, I wouldn't do fine on my own. I like to be in a place. I mean, I like to visit other places, but I don't want to carry my home on my back. As much as I have, you know, 45 sweaters in the backseat of my car, right? I think that I would do better as an RVer with Mike, but I don't think I would do well as an RVer in general.

Doug: What do you think he'd be good at? Winnowing out all the extra stuff that you would insist on having on you that you don't need?

Magda: Yeah, absolutely.

Doug: But I mean the problem is... I think within two months you couldn't see out the windshield if you were RVing by yourself.

Magda: Well, the problem is that he and I have different ideas of like what's necessary. Like, oh my God, he has so many utensils. He has four ice cream scoops. None of which have the little lever thing to you know, like they're just a scoop. And so I have proposed a feasibility study.

Doug: And the feasibility study is a garage sale.

Magda: The feasibility study is a box. And whenever a utensil that goes in the utensil drawer comes out of the dishwasher, or out of the hand wash, we stick it in the box, instead of in the drawer, right? And then at the end of–I was saying a month, he wants longer, so maybe six weeks, eight weeks–everything that's in the box that has been used in that two months stays, and everything that's still in the drawer goes.

Doug: All right, we're gonna have to publish updates to this entire process on Friday flames.

Magda: Right?

Doug: How goes the great winnowing? And that's why I think speaking of one place, I would love the idea of having everything I own in the back of a vehicle. That just really appeals to me. I have to say, if I just disappear in the back of an RV, do not be surprised. Especially since I can just, you know, send all my mail to “care of Robert's truck.”

Magda: Somewhere in Colorado.

Doug: I really enjoyed talking to Michelle. We met her through Karen (Walrond) and she really made a transition, right? Because she was a lawyer. She was in offices and wearing suits and now she's doing zero of those things. She’s writing books about people, getting to know the world around her and seeing the world through that RV. And that's really appealing.

Magda: Yeah, but I mean, like, you're saying it's a transition. I see the story a little bit differently. I see her story as the bottom dropped out for her at the beginning of the pandemic, the same way it did for a whole lot of people. And she came up with a project, she created a project for herself, because she was trying to get hired by somebody and people just weren't hiring for what she wanted to do in the pandemic.

Doug: Yeah, that was discouraging, because she's our age.

Magda: And so she created a project for herself. And whether or not this is her new career, like the idea that she wasn't finding somebody else doing what she was interested in doing. So she was like, “Hey, hey, I've got this smart brain.” And she also talks a lot in this interview, which I think is very interesting about how the idea of just packing it all in and driving out in an RV was not at all scary to her because this is kind of like her family thing, that they just go out in an RV.

Doug: Right, right. In fact, I forgot to mention this to her, you know, because she spent a year with the kids out on the road homeschooling them, which conveys the idea they were actually there's a term for that:  “roadschooling.” Okay, but she's a veteran. She's a veteran of road schooling your kids. And a couple people I met in the blogosphere have done that with mixed results. You know, it's one of those things they're happy to have done. Yeah, yeah.

Magda: Like, I can't imagine trying to teach my kids while we were in an RV. But I mean, I also think she's a really great story of accepting who she is and creating a project around that instead of thinking, “oh, I'm supposed to be this” and keeping on trying and trying and trying even when the situations and conditions weren't friendly. You know, she just created this project and then kept meeting people, kept meeting people, kept meeting people, and then met somebody who was like, you should turn this into a book and all this kind of stuff. So I think that this is not necessarily like a typical story of this is a transition at such and such an age. I think this is much more a story of when you see your luck, you got to grab it. Bet on yourself, go with what you know about yourself, and other people are going to be interested in that.

Doug: So what else is going on today?

Magda: I just joined Threads this morning.

Doug: I saw that! Welcome.

Magda: I'm supposed to have taken a test in Hungarian. It's Mike's birthday and it's my mother's birthday together. Same day.

Doug: They have the same birthday?

Magda: They have the same birthday.

Doug: Well, that was well organized on your part. Well done.

Magda: I know. I know. So, yeah. So we had a family party last night and I made two pies. Made an apple pie yesterday and a pecan cranberry tart. But you know, Mike doesn't like to have excess. Except he loves leftovers. I don't get it. I do not get it. He hates ingredients, but he loves leftovers. It's weird.

Doug: Well, you're a leftover full of great ingredients.

Intro music.

Doug: Your home base is Chapel Hill, is that correct?

Michelle Fishburne: I don't really have a home base anymore now that my oldest has graduated from UNC. So, I don't have a home base anymore.

Doug: Okay. That's cool. Well, I know I've come across a lot of RVers who travel the world. (Well, not the world because RVs tend to flood up when you hit the ocean.) It's like if you are of a certain age and are being around, you want to have a certain place to get your mail and maybe where your doctor is, that kind of thing. Is that something that's on the forefront of your mind at this point?

Michelle: I do have two very, very large storage units with my home in it. And I use my ex's address right now for my driver's license. I got to figure that out. And my mail goes to my younger daughter who is at Georgetown Law School in DC, goes to her apartment. So right now I'm kind of betwixt and between. I'm spread out all over the place and I need to tighten it up and figure that out.

Doug: Adult kids, man. Aren't they the best?

Magda: Well, I think it's funny the idea that adult kids would be more rooted in some places than the parents because you know, we've got the opposite of this right now. We've got a kid who's just living out of his car.

Doug: So an adult kid who's living out of his car. So to me, the idea that like, whoa, what if I could be the one that was just driving around living out of an RV, having magazines sent to his house seems kind of, seems kind of funny.

Michelle: Well, it is. I mean, I think that's what makes people curious about me because I'm not the young influencer who's bopping around and living in a van. I'm not the 20-something.

Magda: Yeah, it's not that whole van life thing, really.

Doug: Yeah, you're bopping around though. It's pretty close. I got to say, your lifestyle isn't that far off, at least for the short term.

Michelle: Oh, it's very, very similar. And so they were saying these days what, “age is just a number” and all that. And so this is a 2006 motorhome that I bought when I had a four year old and a seven year old. And it has 90,000 miles on it. And I've thought about whether I should buy a new one. But people tell me, my gosh, you could drive this for another 50, 60, 70,000 miles. So now I keep looking around this thinking, okay, is it time for a remodel? So we'll see. I might be going to a van influencer saying, hey, can I hire you to trick out my motorhome? I don't know, it could happen.

Doug: Well yeah, does it have the recessed windows and so forth? Telescoping roof and all that other sexy stuff that you see?

Michelle: It actually doesn't. It's a 30 foot motorhome with no slide outs. And when I bought it, slide outs were kind of new and were the ones that would put you in the shop like crazy. And when you live in your vehicle, being in the shop is not where you want to be. And the motorhome is 30 feet. So it takes up basically not all of, but you know, those diagonals and parking lots, it takes up two of those. So I take up two parking spaces.

Doug: And this is the same one you took the kids on the RV trip when they were small.

Michelle: Yeah, so the way that all happened was when my oldest was in kindergarten, the kindergarten teacher told me that she couldn't meet my kids' needs in the classroom, and that I needed to homeschool my child. I went home–

Doug:  “Couldn't meet his needs?” That seems sketchy.

Magda: That's, um, illegal.

Doug: That's a whole nother- It is actually illegal, yes. You're talking to an attorney here, so... 

Magda: No, we're not attorneys. We're not attorneys at all.

Doug: No, but she is.

Michelle: I'm the attorney.

Magda: Oh, you're an attorney, okay.

Michelle: And I told her about my parents being full-time motor homers, and that I had always wanted to go out on the road with my parents in caravan. And she said, oh, that's how your kid learns. So we need to buy a motor home. And that's what we did. And after the end of kindergarten, I took my seven-year-old and my four-year-old out for 10 months, going from National Park to State Park to National Park in caravan with my parents for 10 months. And then we had so much fun that we did it again for four months, two years later. And Doug would fly out for long trips. He met us in Yellowstone. He met us in Big Sky. He met us at Banff. And he met us at Grand Canyon. 

Doug: So Doug is your ex-husband?

Michelle: Yes.

Magda: Hey, it's the best ex-husband name I think.

Doug: I like him already. So you're saying this whole RV wanderlust came about because of a crappy teacher?

Michelle: Well, you know, it actually started in 1933. Pull up a chair. Um, so it's a story. So in 1933, my grandfather lost his job, and he and my grandmother bought a trailer. And they lived in the trailer for three years before they got a house. And I have a photo of them in the newspaper making tea at their stove in their trailer. They're all dressed up. So my mom convinced my dad to buy a trailer when I was two years old. And we grew up camping in the trailer. And then when my parents got bored with country club life, after they retired, they bought a motorhome and then were full timers for seven years. So I think it's in the genes. I'm sure if you check the DNA, you'd find it.

Magda: Okay, so in your book, you've got that story from the doctor who realized that they couldn't afford to stay in their house. And so they sold the house and bought a motorhome. And you know, I was reading that and thinking whatever, but now that I hear this, like they must have thought they were telling you some crazy story. And then you're like, well, actually, this has been like 60 years of my family history. Well, 80 years. At that point, like it wasn't any big shakes to you to hear that story.

Michelle: Well, and that's what's so interesting. This is not any big shakes to me at all. Really, I think that when we reinvent ourselves, whether we choose to do it because we have to, or because we choose to, we have our own unique set of life experiences and skills, history that we draw on for that next reinvention. So what happened with me in 2020, I was a national events and partnerships director for a big non, it wasn't big, it was a significant nonprofit and I had an event all set up in April at the U.S. Senate and the U.S. House. We were going to be going into an event with John Legend, so I was going great guns. It was fabulous. But COVID came and we couldn't do anything, so I got laid off. I thought, no problem. I went to UVA Law School. I worked with two huge law firms. I've got all these skills. I'm responsible. I can get a job. So I did 86 customized cover letters between March of 2020 and the end of July, and I had nothing. And my youngest was going off to college, and the lease on the post-divorce house was coming up on July 31st. And so I was faced with this situation of, yeah, I could go ahead and rent a place or buy a place, but I didn't know where I was going to have to go to get a job because literally nobody wanted me. I had also worked on a presidential campaign, a director at the national headquarters. Nobody would even take me as a volunteer on a campaign. It just was wild. 

Doug: It was the universe, I guess, just saying, no, you're not going to do any of this.

Michelle: Yeah. So this is not your future. This is not your future. So two weeks before we had to get the movers to take my stuff somewhere,  they called me like, listen, lady, we really need you to tell us whether we're where we're taking this stuff. And so I was in a Target parking lot. I'm like, you got to decide, girl. And I decided I'd move into the motor home. But I didn't want to just go to the beach because I knew that I'd wake up every day just as panicked as I already was waking up every day in a house.

And I thought, I need a project. And so that's how I came up with a project of just driving all over the United States and interviewing hundreds of people about their lives during the pandemic. I mean, just like Humans Of New York, I thought I'd do Americans Of The Pandemic.

So the thing is, that didn't seem like a big leap to me because of the 10 months with the kids when they were younger. As I've said several times before, I could drive from Chapel Hill to Yellowstone with my eyes closed, because I've done it so many times. And obviously you wouldn't do it with your eyes closed, but you get the point. So me going out into the motorhome and doing this was not a big deal at all.

Doug: Right. Well, maybe, you know, if you get bored, you might just decide to drive out blindfolded and see what happens.

Michelle: Yeah. I met a couple yesterday who every year take a boat all over the Caribbean. And I said to them, do you ever sleep out in the middle of the water, not in a harbor? And they said, Oh, no, we would never do that. But we know people who would do it. I think the thought of being out in the middle of the water, and going to sleep at night, feeling comfortable, I've watched too many movies, I could not do that. To me, that's courageous.

Magda: It would be terrifying. Because let me tell you, that's where the aliens would get you. That's where the enormous sharks would get you. That's where, like, rogue wave, you know, right? Exactly. Like there's whatever happened to the Bermuda Triangle. Remember how when we were kids, the Bermuda Triangle was like a really big thing. You have not heard a single thing about the Bermuda Triangle in 20 years. And so what if it's just out there somewhere waiting to get people who sleep in their boat?

Michelle: The methane bubbles that pop and then go, you know, or of course the people with the guns.

Magda: It's just like, you know, pirates exist. So yeah, no, no, I'm with you. I could not do that at all. I could not do that at all.

Doug: You spent most of your professional life in cities, right? You were in DC. Were you living in the district proper?

Michelle: Oh, yeah, I lived in the district proper. I'm really a tree person. I grew up in Princeton, New Jersey, which has some, I mean, it's just like almost nothing but trees. So DC was actually kind of an anomaly. And I could only take so much of it before I bought a lake house because I really had to get back out to the trees in the water every weekend that I could.

Doug: So I know, I just wanted to say I empathize with that. Because if you live in the city, and then you go out and it's completely quiet, all you can think about is Deliverance. And, you know, you can just... 

Magda: Children of the Corn.

Michelle: Well, so I never saw the Blair Witch Project because after Jaws, you know, the ocean, right? And so as much as I enjoy trees and woods and stuff, when Blair Witch Project came out, I was like, not doing it.

Doug: Well, that's I mean, Magda and I would drive out to my sister's house from the city and she lives in the middle of nowhere in New Jersey. And Magda would look out the window like they're all out there behind the trees waiting for us.

Magda: Oh my God, like I'm waiting for the guy from Texas Chainsaw Massacre to come out. I don't know. I'm just a city person.

Doug: Well, I mean, now that we're this far into the podcast, we should mention that the book is Who We Are Now: Stories of what Americans lost and found during the COVID-19 pandemic. And I think it's actually important that the “and found” is in there because we do tend to talk a lot about what the lockdown cost us and it cost us all something. But there are still lots of stories of finding new paths, finding new options, being thrust into circumstances we didn't see coming and finding out that those were the ones we didn't even know we wanted. Because after all, since when does anyone know what they want?

Michelle: Well, actually, I'm going to push back a little bit, Doug, already on this.

Doug: All right, let me have it, counselor.

Michelle: Because my goal is just talking about living in a city. I drove 12,000 miles all over the United States and interviewed hundreds of people for this book. And what I found is that life out in the areas of the country that are very sparsely populated, they didn't experience maybe anything, because of the lockdown or life was pretty much normal. Now, that doesn't mean that they didn't have relatives or friends and they certainly what they read in the news. But what I found was that every single person spent a little bit more time thinking about other people. So even if they weren't impacted, one of the beautiful things that came out of it is we all slowed down and thought about each other more. And my favorite story, which is actually not in the book, is I met this gentleman named Calvin along the side of the road in Marfa, Texas. I was looking to get some more air in my tires and there was this pickup truck. And so I pulled over and I said, do you know where I can get some air in my tires? And Calvin said, oh, I've got this generator right here. I can just do it for you. As we started talking, I told him what I was doing. And he said, you know, life's been really good for us in Alpine, Texas. I'm a rancher. I have people coming in to hunt and I've got cabins and stuff. Everything's been good for us. But I think a lot about those restaurant owners in New York City. They must just be hurting. And I said to Calvin, you know, I just talked to a guy named Dominic three days ago, and he has a restaurant in Manhattan, and he's still not allowed to have anybody eating in the restaurant. And he's getting wiped out financially. And he's really angry. And Calvin really, he looked sad, genuinely and said, that's what I was afraid of. If you ever talk to him again, would you please tell him there is a rancher in Texas who's thinking about him? So of course, I got on the phone with Dominic immediately. And I said, Dominic, there's a rancher in Texas who's thinking about you.

Doug: Well, it's antithetical to social media, right? Because we're social media, as we've seen, is just is a very distorted view of who people really are.

Michelle: So one of the things that I think set me up to do what I did was when during lockdown, there was a Facebook group, I think it was called something like “The View From My Window.”

Magda: Oh, I remember that group! That was so fascinating.

Michelle: It was wonderful. People were sharing photos of the views from their windows since the world was basically in lockdown all over the world. And it was joyful. There was empathy. There were so many wonderful things about connecting that way. And to be honest with you, Doug, I'm recently on Threads as the happy nomad, and I'm finding Threads to be very similar, which is really neat. And the community keeps pinching themselves going, how long is this going to last? Because it's so positive.

Doug: We're all mourning Twitter, but yeah, I hear you. Threads is definitely in that early stage that Twitter used to be in. And all we can hope is that the same level of responsible management keeps Threads from becoming another just wild west of shit.

Michelle: Well, one of the things that's interesting about Threads is they've introduced the audio memo. And so you can actually hear another person's voice and that connection. But going back to the pandemic and social media, even though I did it during the period of a really contentious election, obviously, in 2020, hardly anybody ever, ever brought up politics when I interviewed them. And at the end of the interviews, a good portion of people would pause and say to me, what's it like out there? Is it really as awful as they say? Is there all that hatred? Is it the country we thought it was? Like, I'm so upset. And several people just named it right away. And they said, it's the media, and it's social media. And I wish they would not pit us against each other. And I, you know, and I really learned from them. And I came to realize that I took political science and I was a lawyer, right? And I thought of the press as the fourth estate, as having a responsible role as the fourth estate. It took me till 2020 to realize, after hearing these people, that they're just making money these days. And remember Rock'em Sock'em Robots, those little plastic guys? If they can just wind us up and have us go at each other, they make more money. And they don't care that it's tearing us apart, that it's making people think that other people in the country hate them and that it's ginning us all up because they're making so much money. People all over the country were talking about that after I did the interviews.

Doug: And that's what I love about this book, because as I say, you're right, social media is not completely irredeemable, but you have to work harder to get the wheat amid the chaff. And I think you've done that. Because again, it's about interpersonal contact. And it's about remembering that people are people with needs and wants and insecurities and joys and everything else. And that's a perfect antidote to say, you know, you're out there. What's it like? Is it really as horrible as we've been led to believe it is? And the answer is no. Books like yours emphasize that. I wanted to ask, too, when you have these interviews, how many of them were just ad hoc? Did you schedule many of them, or were you just pulling over and seeing who would talk to you?

Michelle: I was thinking that that's what's gonna happen. But Doug, we forgot that this was during the pandemic and there was nobody on the street. It was hard to find people to talk to. And if you did, how do you get that connection when you've got the mask on your face with a stranger?

And so, you know, when John Steinbeck went out and did Travels With Charlie, and I had my dog Buddy with me, he could go to restaurants, diners, right, you know, and bars and festivals. And he was bumping into people all the time. I got out there. It's nobody. There's a photo of me in the book standing on the bridge between Cincinnati and Kentucky. And I just stood in the middle of that bridge trying to figure out what selfie I wanted to take for like five minutes and maybe three cars went by and it was rush hour and it was crazy. It was really hard to find people and I started off sending emails out to newspapers and radio stations and museums and mayors and things like that, thinking organizations, maybe somebody from that organization would talk to me. And that worked to some extent. But not exactly. I mean, it did work, but it wasn't as much fun. And then I got out to Pine Bluffs, Wyoming, because nobody in Cheyenne would return my emails. And Pine Bluffs, Wyoming is right nearby. And I thought, well, I'll go see what's on their Facebook page. And that's how I figured out who to talk to. Because somebody once said, who was in journalism, that Facebook has become the new town square. And so I thought, all right, I'm going to go see what's going on in Pine Bluff, Wyoming. And they had had a kite festival. And so I reached out to their Parks and Rec department. I said, can I come interview you about your kite festival? And she said, I guess. So when I got in there, she said, why would you want to know about our kite festival? And she was just kind of floored. And she said, you know, you need to also talk to Chad, who's got a distillery and they made hand sanitizer and you've got to talk to Carrie, who has a dog stunt show. And she hasn't been able...

Magda: A dog stunt show?

Michelle: Yes.

Magda: That's funny.

Michelle: And so she, Carrie usually is only home for like two weeks a year because they're traveling all over the world. Dogs catching frisbees, dogs jumping off of diving boards and stuff. So I ended up talking to all these different people. And then so I realized the really fun thing was to get into a community where you'd find a connector. And when that mojo started happening, the book became really fun.

Doug: All right, I'm just taking down notes. So Pine Bluff, Chad, Carrie, got it. Because I want to talk to him too.

Michelle: Well, so during the pandemic since they couldn't do that they tried out for America's Got Talent and they ended up on America's Got Talent and Howie said it was the best dog show that he had ever seen.

Doug: And that's what I'm talking about, unforeseen right turns that end up far more exciting than he ever would have figured out initially because there are as many stories about gain as there are about loss, and we need to just acknowledge that. How early into your trip did this Pine Bluff trip happen? And you talk about tipping points in terms of realizing this project had some real momentum, had some real promise. Was there a particular point when that flipped over for you?

Michelle: Well, I left Chapel Hill on September 11th, which is an odd date to have started this, but that's when I left. And I think if I'd go back, I'd have to look at the book to figure out when I was in Pine Bluff. Early October.

Doug: I'm glad that you felt that level of traction that early. Now, most of these entries are, they're just transcripts of what you talked about, right? I mean, they're kind of more quoting them directly than it is applying your own editorial commentary, right? 

Michelle: Exactly. What I did was I used my phone, a transcription app called Otter, O-T-T-E-R. And as the person talked, it would record the audio and it translated to text immediately. And the great thing about it is I'd show the person how we're doing it, then I'd put it down next to me and it wouldn't be front and center that they're being recorded. There was always a moment in every interview where my jaw kind of dropped. I

I would take that moment and I'd figure out the arc, I'd use their own words. Every once in a while I'd put a couple filler words and then I'd send it back to them and say, “Is this what you said?” So they are all first person stories and they are between 400 and 1100 words each.

One of the fun ones is Chris Olsen, who was a college student turned TikTok star. And so I interviewed him on The Ascendants. And then Kristina Wong who was an LA comedian whose national tour just kicked off and she couldn't do it because of COVID. So she ended up accidentally founding a huge group of volunteers that have made over 350,000 masks for vulnerable people and indigenous groups, face masks. And she did a one woman show about it in New York City in November 2021. And I was up in New York City and met her at that time.

She just won a $500,000 Duke Award for her work.

So those are some interesting stories, but then a young black mayor in an Arkansas town, and the head of a Muslim relief organization in Dallas, a Christian minister in Baltimore, and then all sorts of jobs of doctors and nurses, of course, and teachers and liquor store managers. And it's just all over the map and the whole idea, and at first when we were putting the book together I had photos of almost everybody and we thought about “oh it's gonna be like Humans Of New York with the photo and then the interview.” But this is published by UNC Press in the Duke Center for Documentary Studies, and so it had to be peer-reviewed twice, actually, before you get the contract and then the final manuscript. And so when we sent the final manuscript to the peer reviewers, one of them called the book elegiac, which means poetic. And I thought, you know, it might not be elegiac if you had the photos. It was sort of, and the way it's set up, it sort of tumbles you through the pandemic. With each person's story, you have no idea what you're getting. But it does try to tumble you through it somewhat sequentially.

Doug: Especially because elegiac is also like an elegy, like lamenting death. And I think what your book has done a lot is to counter that narrative by saying, again, a lot of things found their end, but there were plenty of beginnings as well.

Michelle: I asked everybody the same question, which was, “It's January 1st, 2020. What was your 2020 supposed to be like and what did it end up being like through to the present?” And I'm really glad that I did that because it was so open-ended and people would talk about what was most important to them.

And first of all, the politics was not most important to anybody. But also by asking that question, any preconceived notions about what I wanted to know about, I had to park. So this woman, Anne, who was a wedding planner in LA, I wanted to ask her all about weddings and you know, “how did it go? And did you do any?” But I had to ask her the same question as everybody else. And she didn't want to talk about weddings. She wanted to talk about the fact that when she had nothing to do, she started making meals for the homeless, and now she doesn't really know if she wants to go back to wedding planning because it was the most meaningful work of her life. And if I had asked a more direct question, I never would have gotten that.

Because I think so many of us have been surprised during this. And Carrie and Jared Bean, they were oil pipeliners. And they both ended up being home and they were trying to figure out something to do and so they made a cornhole board for a friend for their birthday and put it out on Facebook. And then it just exploded because in that spring of 2020, there were no live sports except for cornhole tournaments. ESPN was broadcasting cornhole tournaments because you could stand socially distanced by definition, right? And so... 

Doug: I remember that, yeah. That was like all of a sudden, cornhole on TV. What the hell?

Magda: Right. But I also remember people from parts of the country where they didn't call it cornhole were like, oh my God, people call this “cornhole”?

Doug: You know, when I think about projects like this, I'm always very curious about the way the project turned out versus what your initial thoughts about it would be. But I want to take that a step further with you because we may have caught you on a good day, but I'm getting a real buoyant vibe off of you. You just seem like a really, you have an insouciant way of carrying yourself and how would you gauge your own personal growth throughout this process or how you compare yourself now to who you were 10 years ago?

Michelle: Well, I recently sent an email to a partner at a firm that I had worked at because now my daughter's in law school and is in DC where I practiced. And so I was reaching out to some old connections. And after I sent the email, it struck me, oh my gosh, this person is still at their desk.

I left the law when my first child was born 23 years ago. And in those 23 years, I have lived this huge, colorful, variable life. And it occurred to me, I was just kind of stunned between the trajectory I was on and where I ended up. And no, my bank account does not look like it would have if I had continued to do that. But oh my gosh, I have lived. I have just really lived.

Doug: And I think that's part of a level of contentment to know that you've been through some things, you've lived through some things, and so you might have regrets or you may have done things differently with more data, but the bottom line is it's better to have done things and moved on than it is to be at this age now and wonder what if.

Michelle: Well, and one of the things that's really been meaningful to me about my life–I can't believe I said the word “meaningful” because everyone's like, what's my meaning?

Doug: But, um, there's no judgments here. We're all searching for that.

Michelle: I'm thinking to myself, like, maybe this is, you know, maybe this is as significant as you're saying, which is that because I stayed home and raised my kids. I got to see everything that they did practically, except for the stuff they didn't want me to see, and that's a whole other story. And I got to be with my parents for those wonderful 10 months, and then four months when we caravaned all over the United States and Canada. And when my kids needed me, I've been able to be there. And when Hurricane Ian hit my parents' home last September, I just got on my motorhome and started driving. And I was there with them to help them.

And then my dad fell and broke his hip. And he was 87. And then he went into hospice. And then I stayed with my mom, who had been recently widowed after 66 years. So I've been able to be a mom and be a daughter in a way that was important to me. I have the freedom to, to be with loved ones when they need me. And that's been really important.

Doug: That's a wonderful, especially given the trajectory you were once on when you're in the legal field and it's all about bill your hours, make an impression. I mean, it's not beyond the pale to assume that you wouldn't have had any of those experiences you just described, which is a wonderful glitch in the matrix, you know, cause you're here now and sitting in a motor home, you got some birds chirping at you in the background and it sounds terrific.

Michelle: I wish everybody had the ability to have the glitch in the matrix, because I think one of the things that is wonderful about having a flexible work schedule, I get to earn a living and use my brain, but I also get to be human. And the way we've set up so much of society doesn't let us be human. And I think about how fortunate I am to be able to do this because the people who have to work at brick and mortar, whether they're the people who are making so much money and being called into Morgan Stanley, or they're the people who are working three jobs at minimum wage, they don't get to have this. And so I really understand how lucky I am.

Magda: A thing I noticed when I was reading the book that I thought was interesting, not surprising at all, but interesting was how people responded to that open-ended question that you had because there were some people who were really saying, “Oh I was expecting this and then I got something better,” and then there were some people who really were stuck in the loss. And I don't mean “stuck” in a pejorative way at all. I mean, they were only being interviewed, what, six or seven months into it, it wasn’t like they were stuck stuck. And three years later, it would be interesting to know how those people now felt about 2020. If the people who were so determined to take something out of it still felt like they had gotten something out of it. And if the people who were in the middle of being hurt by it when they talked to you were still hurt by it.

Michelle: That's a really interesting question, and I'm really glad I went out and I did it when I did, because if I were to ask you today the same question about back then, you can't help but give an answer that's different than you would have in the moment, right?

Magda: Right.

Michelle: You know, I also think that when people go back and they read their stories, they're just like, oh my gosh, that's right. I mean, part of it, I think, is that the people who I stopped and I asked that question of had the opportunity to reflect in a way when they were going through it. I would ask the question, and most people literally talked for 30 to 45, 50 minutes, and then they breathed. And even Jim Perdue, who is the president of Perdue Family Farms, I said, you can just keep talking, Jim.

And he said, well, you know, I don't know. And so he talked for 18 minutes and he said, “that was the longest answer of my life.” There were so many people that when they got done with it, they said, “Thank you for giving me the opportunity to process it.” I don't know what the people who were sort of stuck would say now. I know that we all have this ability to contextualize things and move on. And the word pluck is something I often talk about, about the people in the book, which is that even when things are really hard, people still knew they needed to put one foot in front of the other.

Doug: You were using the word “pluck” when you were talking to Jim Perdue?

Michelle: Well played, well played Doug. That joke. You know, Ron Wilkins, for example, the trombonist who almost died during the pandemic, it was so powerful for him to have lived that he turbocharged his life by it. The gentleman, Jerome, who was a COVID denier, thought it was part of a conspiracy and he infected his father-in-law who died. He's never going to get over that. And when I interviewed him, his sense of guilt was so huge. And I usually, you know, would just take the person's story and not really comment back on it. But with Jerome, I said, you know, that's one of the hard things about this disease is that it doesn't cause a blue dot on our face. If you had had a blue dot on your face, you never would have been near your father-in-law. 

I do know that there are some people who have been in the health field who are in therapy. Because I interviewed some people who led major cities. They ended up having to go into therapy because it was just too hard. I talked recently to a doctor who I had not interviewed and she said, I just can't be a doctor anymore. And she said, “I really can't talk about what happened back then.” She said, “because I have PTSD.” So I think that there are people who need to put it in a box and never think about it again for their mental health. So I think it stays with a lot of people. We have long COVID in my immediate family, and that has not left my 24-year-old and has really impacted, has impacted her life substantially.

And people are still struggling with it. It's just the complexities of what we went through are impossible to parse.

Doug: It sounds like there's a lot of open-ended thoughts that circle your mind. And is there a plan to do this again? And if so, what would you do differently? And what would you do the same? And how many people that you talk to would you try to reconnect with to follow up on?

Michelle: I learned a lot about the publishing world that I did not know. Like I said, I'm naive. Also…

Doug: I have to say, that's a great characteristic. I think a lot of this project came about from just, why not?

Michelle: Exactly, exactly. So the whole goal of the project was just to have something that I could point to to say, look, I'm worth your hiring.

Magda: It was sort of a portfolio.

Michelle: Exactly. It was just supposed to be a portfolio. But then when I was out in Henrietta, Oklahoma, and this was like mid-October, and I was talking to Alliance Club, the woman says, is this a book? And I said, no, it's not a book. And then people kept saying, is it a book? Is it a book?

It is a book. And then a friend of mine who had two books sat me down.

He said, Michelle, this is a book. So you went out and you got all of these interviews. And don't you owe something to posterity? This is history.

Like, you need to have this as a book. And I'm like, well, damn. And so now I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do next. So I have a couple ideas in my head. What I really want to do, I really don't want to opine. All I really want to do is offer up other people's voices. And so then I thought about, well, what about this, like, different ways of living life? Like people like me who maybe are living in a lighthouse or off the grid or in their motorhome or a van or a boat or whatever.

Doug: Yeah. You went out, you let the stories speak for themselves. And wouldn't there be a refreshing change to not having to sew them up into a theme and opine on it? There's no need for that. I think we've seen so much of that where the poignancy we all seek is in the stories themselves, don't you think?

Michelle: I think that's true.

Doug: You got the wheels, you got the experience. You can work hard to maintain the naivete that you had, that you've lost a little of, but you can gain that back and head out there again and see what's what.

Michelle: Well, so the other one was who we are now, older, wiser and funnier. And the idea is to interview people who are like 85 and up. And I thought that would be kind of fun. I feel like I need to have some kind of theme. But Doug, I take your point. And I'm going to think about that a little bit if there's I mean, Kurault had a theme, which was journeying across America.

Doug: Well, but he had an agenda too. He had kind of an anodyne approach. He wanted to just show the world. That's what Steve Hartman's doing now. I mean, they're very entertaining. I cry at half of them. They're great. And you can decide what your stories are, but they don't necessarily have to all be feel good stories. They're just a cross section of where we are.

Michelle: That's true. I mean, I was thinking, when I was thinking about the people who are living unusual lives, I think one of the things that we all wonder about is, why did you do this? Like, what was that moment that you decided, I'm just gonna go ahead and move into my, you know, Sienna? Because I know a woman who just moved into her Sienna, and she's been doing it now for four years. She lives in her Sienna van. And don't you want to know, like, so many of us have questions when you make such a huge change, like, why?

Doug: Well, you're living proof why. You made a big change and look at you. You can't stop smiling.

Magda: Well, yeah, but also she lives in an RV. That's really different than living in a Sienna.

Michelle: Yeah.

Doug: Well, it depends on your point of view of what your comfort level is, right?

Magda: I mean, I don't think it depends on your point of view. Like Michelle has a bed. Michelle has a kitchen, right? It's not the same as just living in a van.

Doug: Well, our son has a truck with three extra inches of clearance so he can sleep underneath it in cold weather.

Magda: It's true, but he's also 21. Like, I think the stuff that you do when you're 21 is totally not the stuff you want to be doing in your 50s.

Doug: Right. Yeah, there's some comfort involved.

Magda: Except for those people who are really, really serious when they were 21 and who just never got a chance to do dumb stuff. Like one time he, Robert, said to me, “I know I'm doing a lot of dumb stuff.” And I was like, you're 21, you're supposed to be doing dumb stuff. This is the time of life.

Michelle: When like, if you can't do dumb stuff now, you just got to wait in your 50s. But that's actually I think is what's happening. We were sold some bill of goods of retirement, which I'm now starting to think, you know what, that wasn't for us. No, that was for corporate America making room for the younger folk who don't cost as much, right? Yeah, it was like, let me give you this watch so I can hire somebody at a lower cost to do your job. And like, keep the whole thing going, right? So maybe retirement wasn't for us because people get out there. And I know my dad was like, if I have to play golf another time, I'm just gonna lose it. And, and I think that the time for doing goofy stuff in the early part and then you get to serious in your career and family. Then you get to these later 50s or 60s and you're like what the hey, let's go for it.

Doug: Let's have fun again. It's clear you found this other pocket of Wow right here in the 50s and went off in a whole new direction. The stakes kind of don't have to be as high because you've got a bit, you know, maybe you have a bit more money put away and all you got to worry about is cracking your hip somewhere and that's about it.

Michelle: Hey, not yet, Doug.

Doug: I'm watching with my son. We're watching Alone, the TV show about people who go off in the Arctic for 100 days.

Michelle: Oh my gosh.

Doug: And they have to just live off the land. And they have a little camera that they have to carry around.

Magda: In the Arctic?

Doug: Yeah, they're around Great Slave Lake, which is way up there, about 75 miles south of the Arctic tree line. And um, you see these 35 year old people, their nutrients have waned a bit and the ice is coming.

They're walking around like they're 90, saying, “I really can't afford to slip on this ice because there's nothing to do if something happens.” And we've had people, there was one guy in his fifties, we saw a season and he came out like a bat out of hell saying like, I'm going to conquer this thing. I am going to be the last one standing. You don't have to worry about me. I'm from Texas and we kick all the ass in this country. And he broke his leg in four days.

Michelle: Oh, geez.

Doug: I'm hoping he's fine. I'm hoping his family's fine.

Michelle: Apparently, there are unusual artist-in-residency opportunities.

I think that would be fun to go to Antarctica and do that and do like a Who We Are Now Antarctica. And then also just put it out there. You know, there are those cruise ships now where people can go and live for you sign up for three years, you get a condo basically for three years on this cruise ship, or an apartment. So if they wanted to hire me to go out there and interview some of their people, like in year two, as they're about to try to start signing up more people, that would be really fun. I'd go out there and interview their people about what it's like to live on the sea as you're traveling home.

Doug: Robert and I watched an episode of Anthony Bourdain's show, and he went to the South Pole and talked to people who sign up for six-month stints or year-long stints just to do research or do whatever.

That was one of the first things Robert expressed interest in. I want to live there for a year and figure out what they're all about. What type of person wants to come to this isolated spot and do this particular arcane work?

Michelle: Well, if Robert goes, let me know. Maybe I'll end up being down there. I can interview him.

Doug: Can you imagine just Robert and Michelle talking with each other in the back of the van?

Magda: Oh my God, that would be crazy.

Doug: You know, you'd have to break for food after 36 hours.

Magda: Yeah. Well, okay, I think the cruise ship idea is also fascinating because I find that such an interesting model, right? That it would be cheaper or easier or whatever to just sort of retire onto a cruise ship. And if I wasn't so terrified of the ocean, I would consider it. It just seems like fun, right? Like you're a traveling senior center. Right, everybody else there's with their babies. We've been talking about this a lot, I think, because one of the running themes of our show is like taking care of older parents who are moving into assisted living, senior living, that kind of stuff. And like, I am all ready to go, you know, as long as there's room for my yarn, as long as I can get the internet. It just seems like college, like everybody's your same age, you're all there on the hall together, you don't have to cook your own meals. It just seems like fun to me and the cruise ship would be even better. You can get off. Where are you? You're someplace where there's a port. All right. Go in and have a look.

Michelle: I think it sounds like fun. I would like to go out and interview those people. I'm kind of a buffet kind of person though so the thought of like signing up for three years gives me a little bit of the heebie-jeebies because my mom's still here of course and my kids and you know so there's that whole disconnect. Speaking of my mom, so tomorrow I'm driving to Fort Myers where my mom lives in a continuing care resort community and so I'll be hanging out with her for a week. There are, I don't know, 15 widows that have become her new best friends, and they're constantly doing things. My mom is always hard to find because she's got so many activities going on. She's 85, she has water aerobics every day, and she's just living the life. She misses my dad intensely, but she's trying to make the best of it. And to be in a community where there are so many people right there and ready to be supportive has been absolutely fabulous for her.

Doug: Yeah. 66 years they were together, is that right? Or married?

Michelle: 66. 66 years they were married.

Doug: Wow. And how long, when did he pass?

Michelle: In December of last year.

Doug: So she's still, it's still very fresh. And you know, they say that when people have been together that long and one's missing, you really want to pay attention to the other person and see how their morale is. And I'm glad she's surrounded by people who keep her engaged and care for her.

I mean, that's, I think that's an important step to trying to press on alone.

Michelle: We just spent a week in Williamsburg two weeks ago and then a week at the Outer Banks. We'll spend a week in Charleston for Thanksgiving and then Cayman for two weeks for Christmas. So I'm keeping her hopping around.

Doug: How good a passenger is she? How well does she travel?

Michelle: Remember that they were full-timers in their motorhome for seven years and my mom is five foot two, basically five foot three. And she drove it.

Doug: She fits in one of the storage compartments.

Michelle: She drove their 42 foot rig and pulled a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

But actually, I know, but when we go to these different places, we're  going to Airbnbs and timeshares and things like that. So this is not the two of us being in the motorhome. But we will probably do that but probably for no more than like three or four days at a time because it's 30 feet is small for two adults. 

Doug: Yeah, but at least it's an option.

Michelle: And so this goes right back around to because of my no brick and mortar home lifestyle. I get to be there for my mom and for my young adult kids. By the way, just throwing it out there just in case you guys haven't heard of this or something called Hello Landing. Have you heard of Hello Landing? They have apartments in cities all over the country. Let's say the rent's like $4,000 a month, so it's a little pricey, but you can say, I want to go live in Austin for three weeks. And then when you're done, you say, okay, what you got in St. Louis? What you got in Miami? And you can just tumble from one to the other. And they also have something called Landing Standby for about $1,600 a month. And these are all furnished apartments at a nice level, like you know what you're getting. You can just pick a city and say, what do you have? And so-and-so, oh, for right now in Old Town Alexandria, we have this, this, and this. Oh, okay, I'll take this one. So you just move right into it, and it's all set up for you. And then when they have somebody who's willing to pay full rent, four grand or five grand, they let you know, and then you  have to vacate within 72 hours to whatever next Hello Landing unit is.

And you just bop around like that. So for those people who want to try city living, and they want to live in various different cities, and they are flexible enough, to pick up after 72 hours and move to a new place, I suggest they check out Hello Landing and Landing Standby.

Doug: See, this looks to me like this is just a start of a whole body of encyclopedic discussions about where you can go, because every discussion, everything you learn is going to lead to four more things you can learn about what to do and where to go and how to do it and how the logistics work out. How you take care of your parents, how you stay in touch with your children, how you stay healthy. There's a body of experience that's waiting for you. And I think if you do decide to write more, I think what a great project would be, there are so many more opportunities that most of us have never thought of. And you're going to go out and experience them and tell us about them so we can do them too.

Michelle: That's a good idea. That'd be kind of fun.

Doug: All right.

Michelle: Good idea, Doug. I'd be the help for that book. For real. I could be like a scout. I could be out there.

Magda: I think there's something to be said for, remember earlier, you said that this wasn't a big leap for you, but you understand that it would be a huge leap for other people. I mean, OK, there's a business in there, obviously, but there's also something bigger in there about you really actually being a scout for other people, because for you, it isn't a big deal. But for other people, it might be the big risk of their life to just be able to detach and go someplace else for a little while.

Doug: Yeah, you're the one in the pool looking up at someone on the high dive saying, Come on, I'm here and I'm fine. And it's great.

Michelle: Yeah, that's true.

Doug: So I'm going to ask this. You may have been asked this many times before and have an answer ready. This is going to air on November 8, 2023. So what was your life supposed to be like and what did it end up being like through the present?

Michelle: The way my life is supposed to be is when I was in fourth grade, I thought I was going to become president of the United States. And so if my life had gone according to plan, I would be president, but it didn't. And it's been an interesting journey. And what I like to say, and

from Karen Walrond's book, Radiant Revolution, when she interviewed me, I said, I think of us all as like kaleidoscopes, where each of us come into this world where their own little set of like little colorful pieces, you know, at the end of our kaleidoscope, and each of our collection of whatever those pieces are is unique. And as we get to go through this life, and things happen or we cause things to happen, whether we were turning the dial intentionally on our own or we drop it and do something else. Each time you see a different version of yourself as all the pieces like reassemble. I was supposed to be president, but I ended up having this other life and it's been really interesting and it's not over. And I'm sure I will go through hopefully many different versions before it's all done.

Doug: Well, that was my point, right? I mean, you haven't ended up. If there's anybody who hasn't ended up yet, it's you. And, you know, we can all play with our kaleidoscopes and cultivate our own beautifully distorted view of the world.

Well, Michelle, I can't thank you enough for talking with us today. I'm really inspired by it, inspired by the changes you've made and some of which were forced upon you, and others you've made the conscious choice to improve your life, And I think the proof is in the overall vibe that this conversation had. I'm really grateful for the time, and thanks for talking with us today.

Michelle: I really enjoyed it. Thank you guys. This was a lot of fun.

Doug: If people want to learn more about your book or where you write or what your web presence is, tell us about where to find all that online.

Michelle: It's easy to find out a lot about me by going to whowearnow.us.

You can find out all about the book, which is Who We Are Now: Stories of what Americans lost and found during the COVID-19 pandemic. And the easiest is to find me on social, on Instagram or Threads, where I'm known as “the happy nomad.”

Doug: Yes, we'll link to all of those. We're going to have so many links in these show notes because of all the people you've discussed and all the things that you want to do and have done. There's going to be a libretto like that. I'm really hoping that the next thing you write will be inspired by this and you'll follow in that tradition. I've really enjoyed the history of people like Steinbeck and Charles Kuralt, but I mean, I think the vibe is different. You have lots of opportunity that they didn't have to do so much more with how you're going to spend your time. And so I wish you all the luck with it.

Michelle: Well, thank you, Doug. I really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Doug: And thank you, everybody, for listening to Episode 23 of the When the Flames Go Up podcast with Magda Pecsenye Zarin and me, Doug French. When the Flames Go Up is a production of Halfway Noodles LLC and is available on all the usual platforms as well as whentheflamesgoup.substack.com. Please subscribe and you'll get a new episode of our podcast every Wednesday and another newsletter on Friday. Our guest has been author and itinerant and recovering attorney, Michelle Fishburne. If you listen to us on Apple Podcasts, please offer up a review. We would really appreciate that. Thanks again for listening and we will see you next week. Bye-bye.