Episode 6: Transcript

"There is no 'being' a grownup. There is only growing up." - with Asha Dornfest

Doug French: I'm so glad we, we rescued this.

Magda Pecsenye: I know, it would have been hard to replicate.

Doug: This was so dangerously close to not happening for at least a few weeks while we regrouped.

Magda: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Doug French: But man, what a great save just because, I don't know, it was great to see Asha again. It was great to see her back in the fray, you know? She kind of retracted into herself for a while, while she coped with her dad's death.

Magda Pecsenye:

I think there are a lot of people that had things that were really horrible that happened to them in 2020 and they just haven't been able to really process or grieve it because they didn't have access to all of our normal rituals and systems and structures and the way we all function together to process this kind of stuff. I mean, the pandemic isn't over. People are back doing a lot of normal things, but there just sort of hasn't been any recognition that we're still in the pandemic, that there's still some stuff we can't do. I don't know, it's just all kind of screwed up.

Doug French:

It's interesting that all his friends are still in the Bay area and now they're all settled in Portland. I mean, it's not a small thing.

Magda Pecsenye:

Right. And she also said her dad was really private, right? Like there are a lot of people who don't actually want a memorial service.

Doug French:

Well, it's not about them. A memorial service is about the people who love you. It's not about you, it's for them.

Magda Pecsenye:

That's absolutely true, but there are people who specifically say, "I don't want you to have a memorial service." So then what do you do when that person dies? Do you dishonor the person by having a memorial service for yourself? Like I just feel like it's an impossible situation.

Doug French:

Well, I mean, so if either of your parents said, do not have a memorial for me, you wouldn't do it?

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah, I wouldn't do it if they didn't want me to. I would come up with some other mechanism, right? But I'm also a rituals person. Like, I mean, I love a rubric, I love a ritual. So if I was cut off from the normal mourning ritual in our culture, I would come up with something else. But.

Doug French:

Yeah, I think they just get together and say, "Don't call it a memorial. We're all getting together because we need to grieve this out."

Magda Pecsenye:

And you think about how many cultures have conflicting traditions around disposing of the body, burial, cremation, whatever, but most cultures have some concept of a wake, sitting shiva, whatever you want to call it, of the people getting together and telling stories. I don't know. I mean, no, but if my parents were like, "I don't want a memorial service," although I can't imagine either of my parents being like that. You know, a couple of years ago they bought burial plots.

Doug French:

I didn't know that.

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah, after my dad's brother died, they went and bought their own plots. And that was our Christmas gift one year. The gift was that my brother and I would not have to deal with it when they died. That was the gift.

Doug French:

What about you? Have you thought about where you'd like to be?

Magda Pecsenye:

Oh, I've absolutely thought about the whole thing. After my uncle died, I wrote exactly what I wanted to have for my funeral and all of that kind of stuff and sent the order of service and the order of everything both to our kids and to my brother and sister-in-law. Yeah, I would like to be cremated and the joke is that I would like my ashes divided and put into one of those, you know, your ashes put into two paperweights and force each of the kids to display the paperweight with my ashes prominently in their house. 

Doug French:

There's alwqys a joke.

Magda Pecsenye:

It's not for real. 

Doug French:

So what kind of quantity of ashes goes into a paperweight? How big is this paperweight going to end up being?

Magda Pecsenye:

I don't know the ones. So the reason I know about these paperweights are that when my grandmother died, my uncle and I were the ones who were in charge of the funeral, the obituary, all that kind of stuff. And we were at the funeral home and they had these paperweights there and they're, I don't know, they're like maybe four to six inches in diameter. And they just look like a swirled blown glass paperweight. It looks like sand on the inside, but it's ashes. 

Doug French:

And you're letting the kids control what those paperweights eventually look like? 

Magda Pecsenye:

Well, the kids are going to control the whole thing! I'm only, like, I don't have any control over whether this actually happens. I just created a document to give people guidance. If they don't follow through, it's not going to be my business at that point.

Doug French:

So they gotta figure out what those paperweights are gonna look like. Like maybe it'll look like that nutcracker that's been sitting around here for 11 years.

Magda Pecsenye:

I'm providing them comic material. I'm not dictating any actual actions.

Doug French:

Yeah. Well, maybe since it's two boys, they could have statues of matching gay cardinals.

Magda Pecsenye:

Maybe they could have matching gay cardinals. That would be appropriate.

Doug French:

Well, I really enjoyed this is Asha Dornfest. Her first claim to fame, I think, was Parent Hacks, which built into a huge platform way back in the day. And then she was on the Edit Your Life podcast with Christine Koh. And now she has re-re-re-emerged as a writer with Parent of Adults because her nest is empty but her heart is full. I'm not sure we're going to use that. I liked how she said she's on the other side of it now and ready to write about it again, because, you know, nothing mutes your voice like being really unsure how you're going to get through the day.

Doug French:

What struck you about our discussion about how she's moving on now that her mom's in town and, you know, she's kind of establishing the new template that's gonna take her forward?

Magda Pecsenye:

Well, I thought that was it, it was the establishing the new template, the renegotiation of everything. I think it's been interesting. Like, you know, my parents and I have sort of renegotiated at every stage, right? When I had our older son and became a parent and they became grandparents, like that was a renegotiation, you know, and then a couple of years ago, my parents had a will drawn up and power of attorney documents and stuff like that, presented them to my brother and me. And that was another renegotiation. So it just feels like a renegotiation at every stage. And I think it's very good for Asha that she's able to be so conscious about it and that her mom's being so conscious about it, too. And I also find it very heartening that they're able to do this renegotiation of their relationship after Asha's kids are out of the house too, because then it isn't like finding a new situation in all ways, it's just sort of their relationship with each other.

Doug French:

And I'm so happy to report that I'm taking down these huge trees. I'm looking forward to your chainsaw, by the way. But I cut down a lot of trees and put them in the compost bin and they took them. 

Magda Pecsenye:

Wow, good!

Doug French:

Well, why don't you stop by here and drop off your chainsaw and I'll give you Being Mortal. That'll be our swap.

Magda Pecsenye:

Ok, alright, that makes sense.

Doug French:

All right, well then, so here's episode six with Asha Dornfest and I gotta say, we're publishing it on the longest day of the year and it seems appropriate just because when you look at a day that has the most light of any, that's gonna feature Asha Dornfest. 

Doug French:

She's laughing silently.

Magda Pecsenye:

Silently because you're so like...you're so sentimental sometimes.

Doug French:

I'm very sentimental all the time.

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah, it's true, you are very sentimental all the time.

Our funky theme music bops in, plays for twenty seconds, the crossfades out.

Asha Dornfest:

I think this podcast is so important and fantastic. And I already emailed you what I thought about your framing. I just think it's so--I'm right there with you. So I'm just saying I'm really looking forward to this. Approaching it from this sense of goodwill and sharing, like, you talked about this in that first episode that that spirit that we're bringing to these projects, that culture is where it's at.

Doug French:

Well, if there's one person that I could think of that epitomizes that spirit of way back in the day, it's you in many ways.

Asha Dornfest:

That's why I'm such a fan girl of Substack. I mean, I don't jump onto anything and I've been actively reducing my sort of online footprint now for several years. And so,

Doug French:

Hmm.

Asha Dornfest:

yeah, anyway, we can talk about it.

Doug French:

But we are talking about it. I think that's part of where we are as people. I'm doing that, too.

Asha Dornfest:

Totally, yeah.

Doug French:

And we've suddenly realized the pernicious underbelly that social media has, and it still has a use. I mean, you just have to work harder to get the most out of it and use it for the resource it was intended to be or at least could have been. I mean, for example, I love having a private Instagram feed

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah.

Doug French:

because now I can look at all of the bots and all of the OnlyFans accounts that are trying to follow me and I can just say "no thanks."

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, it's true.

Magda Pecsenye:

Well, Doug, you're a really, really good Instagrammer.

Doug French:

Thank you.

Magda Pecsenye:

I mean, I think about it regularly that you keep your Stories updated and curated very interestingly. There's always a good mix of stuff that I'm totally interested in and also stuff that I'm not because it's stuff that you're interested in but I know some of your people are. You know what I mean? I mean like,

Doug French:

Sure.

Magda Pecsenye:

olive cream cheese, right? I also think that you have a good grid also. So yeah.

Doug French:

Well, you know, that's on my dating profile.

Magda Pecsenye:

I have a good grid.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, I have a job to do, says Doug.

Doug French:

A good grid and a perfect colon.

Asha Dornfest:

Look, a perfect colon is worth a lot.

Doug French:

Yeah, when I had my scope, he said, you have a perfect colon. 

Asha Dornfest:

Put that on your dating profile.

Magda Pecsenye:

You gotta take it where you can get it, right?

Asha Dornfest:

You two! We literally got to colonoscopies like within, what, three minutes.

Doug French:

It was a very pleasant experience. I didn't mind it at all. I was out for all of it.

Magda Pecsenye:

I feel like if you're talking about the ratio of patient effort to diagnostic value, the colonoscopy is the best thing you can do. Literally you just have to drink things. And then they find out if you have cancer. Like, it's amazingly--

Asha Dornfest:

And then you don't do it for five years.

Doug French:

So what's on the opposite side of that spectrum? 

Magda Pecsenye:

I don't know, anything you're awake for, right? 

Doug French:

Anything you're awake for. Yeah, well, I'd love to talk about this all morning. I mean, granted that you're talking about stereotypes, here we are, older people clinging to the optimism of social media from 20 years ago and talking about our health procedures and you know,

Asha Dornfest:

No, no, no. I could talk about why now is the time to jump in on, you know, on online community, personally. But anyway.

Doug French:

I know Thomas is in his bedroom right now waiting for us to be done so we can come out and make a sandwich. He went out late last night. He saw "Everything Everywhere All At Once" at the summer festival.

Asha Dornfest:

Possibly the best movie ever made. I was just discussing this with my daughter yesterday who came

Doug French:

Really?

Asha Dornfest:

home from college yesterday. Yeah,

Doug French:

Oh, she's home.

Asha Dornfest:

yeah, as of yesterday.

Doug French:

How long have you got her?

Asha Dornfest:

All summer.

Doug French:

Oh, she's around all summer.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, yeah, it's a fantastic thing. She's got a job that she can do remotely. And so she's here and literally we leapt into discussing that movie, which was just so brilliant. And, speaking of like the most poignant story about, you know, parents and children, I mean, that's that movie. I went I went into that movie not knowing anything and that was the greatest.

Doug French:

Well, and I want to talk about your community and the incentive for you to start your Substack, Parent of Adults. Because as you said, you were on "Edit Your Life" for a very long time, you stepped away from that. Parent Hacks is also a thing of the past in a way, and now you're re-emerging in this very particular way. You've talked a lot about what your life is like now that your kids are out from under the roof, so I wanna hear about your trip with your mom. How long has that been in the works? Is something that either you and she wanted to do or she wanted to see and you wanted to accompany her? But what kind of planning went into that?

Asha Dornfest:

Well, thanks for asking. My 83-year-old mom has just recently moved to a retirement community in Portland. And it's a huge move. So there's a massive story behind that move, of course. But the bottom line is that move is behind us and we decided, my mom and I, to plan two separate road trips, sorta to celebrate, sorta to just realize that we don't only have to do the hard stuff, we can also do fun stuff. And I grew up taking road trips with my parents. My mom is a veteran road tripper, knows the US highway system like the back of her hand. And she is of very sort of compromised health and mobility at this stage of her life. So going on a long road trip is sort of a big deal. She uses a walker. She can't go upstairs or really walk for any length of time. So this was definitely a thing. So, yes, it was in the works, partly because we just wanted to do something fun, partly because we wanted to reconnect with family and friends after the pandemic. You know, I was isolated for sure, but my mom, being older, having the health issues that she does, I mean, she was literally sort of by herself for years. And so this was in many ways a sort of celebration of all of those things.

Magda Pecsenye:

That's cool. Did you focus mostly on car time because it's harder for her to move around?

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, so we took two road trips. The first one was Portland to Southern California. Amazingly, that just happened to be timed during that incredible superbloom in California. There was a massive wildflower superbloom because of all the rain in California and we got to see that. So that was just lucky. And yes, it was focused on car-oriented things and also accessible things like accessible tours. For example, we took the ADA tour at Hearst Castle on the central coast of California. They have all sorts of accessible things for folks who don't have mobility and it was amazing. So that's what we focused on. And then our second trip was Portland all the way down through Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks and you know through Salt Lake City to visit a friend and back. National parks are my mom's things. I mean we are just nature lovers and we went there. My mom wanted to see it again and isn't sure how much time she has to see these things because not only does she have mobility challenges, she was also diagnosed with Parkinson's which is degenerative and so her time, you know, who knows what's going on really?

Doug French:

What kind of resources did you use to find those ADA specific opportunities for your mom. So there were things that she could see and get in and out of and enjoy with minimal effort.

Asha Dornfest:

Right. Well, first of all, these two trips that we took, we were going to places that we were pretty familiar with. So that is, that helped. First of all, my mom has a disabled parking placard for her car. And that is the number one thing that made our trip so much easier. Basically being able to park near the front anywhere we want.

Doug French:

The world's get out of jail free card.

Asha Dornfest:

It is the greatest thing ever. Second of all, our road trips are super modest. We stay in cheap motels, basically, and every motel and hotel has an accessible room. And so we booked those rooms ahead of time. And so those rooms have larger areas. They have bathrooms with more accessible showers, things like that. So we booked those ahead of time. And then other than that, I just Googled. Mom said, "hey," she would say something because she knows all these places. "What if we went here? What if we went there?" And then I would start Googling to see what the accessibility of those either tours or destinations or whatever else was possible. And finally, at the national parks, we always go to the visitor center first. And first of all, they had a whole accessibility guide for all the trails in the parks, which was amazing. And then we would just talk to a ranger and say, "What do we do? Mom can't really walk much. This is how much time we have." And they would just set us up.

Doug French:

So was there anything that you wanted to do that you found you couldn't because it wasn't accessible or did you find opportunities everywhere you wanted to go?

Asha Dornfest:

Well, I think the answer to both of those things is yes. So first of all, my expectations for this trip was, they were really, I was not going to any of these places hoping that I would see all the sites like I usually would. So this really was about being with my mom. And so I was really fine not seeing everything there was to see because these are all places that I believe that I can go back to and will. So in that respect, I saw everything I wanted to see. I didn't, you know, it's really fine if I missed this or that hike or this or that destination. The second thing is there was always something to do. The main thing was for my mom to mentally prepare for the fact that her options were gonna be limited. You know, these are all places she's been before. And she went there before with full mobility. And so the challenge for her was to be okay with what we did have access to. And incredibly she got there. I mean, it took time, you know, because she spent a lot of time being frustrated and full of regret, actually. But she very quickly got into, we got into a groove together and just embraced the time together. We enjoyed what we had and it was great. I mean, we laughed a lot. I mean, we laughed a lot and also, there were times when we were exhausted and irritated with each other and all the other things that happen on a trip. But it was really doable.

Doug French:

Traveling with anyone is one of the most intimate things you can possibly do.

Asha Dornfest:

Mm-hmm. And every travel experience comes with inconvenience and discomfort and all that stuff. It doesn't matter what kind of great trip you're on. There's some something's going to go wrong. And it's just part and parcel of the experience.

Magda Pecsenye:

It completely depends on what mode of travel you are using what is going to go wrong.

Asha Dornfest:

Very true. But you know, it's funny, practically out of the gate, we had some car trouble. So we spent our first full day at the Subaru dealership.

Doug French:

Oh, I remember that.

Asha Dornfest:

And it's funny, Doug, the reason the reason Doug knows that I was at the Subaru dealership was that I was posting a bunch of this stuff on Instagram stories, and we had to just sort of be okay with hanging out at the Subaru dealer instead of doing whatever we had planned. One day it started pouring on us and my poor mom like with her walker just getting poured on. I mean, it was so pathetic that we started cracking up because it was funny. Luckily, my mom, is at her best when she's out there doing stuff and I am just grateful that we could have those times together because, you know, it's been a hard few years for us. It really, really has been and it's so easy to just get stuck in all of the work of assisting our parents as they get older, especially when they're struggling. And I feel so lucky that not only did my mom have the health and the motivation to make these trips, but I was able to create the time in my life to do it because that's not always possible. And so I feel lucky that I had an ability to do that too. I mean, it took a lot of intention, but it was also like seizing the day because you just never know when those opportunities will come along.

Doug French:

We both envy the fact that your mom is so close because I have two parents who are a thousand miles that way. She has two parents that are a thousand miles that way. She's moving farther away from those parents in a couple of months. And it's a consideration. Now, as I consider, my kids are out of school, my ex-wife's moving away. Basically the real anchor in my life right now, and I mean that not in a debilitating way, but in an actual way, the one level of structure I have left right now is how my parents are doing as the oldest of three and someone who's lined up to do a lot for them when they need it. So, if you have your mom around, I mean, was she far away before? How far away was she before she moved to the facility?

Asha Dornfest:

She was far. So I live in Portland, Oregon. She was in Northern California where I grew up in the house that I grew up in. And so the very short version of the story is that my dad passed away suddenly and unexpectedly in February of 2020.

Doug French:

I remember that too, you know.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah. And I'm an only child. And so it's just mom and me. And my dad was the cooker of dinner, buyer of groceries, handler of finances, et cetera. So not only was it a massive shock, grief-filled shock, it was also, for my mom, her life changed so dramatically and practically. So this was February 2020, March 2020, the pandemic came, with lockdown, and there were all sorts of things that happened during that, but basically she spent the next however many years by herself, barring a short period of time where she got actually stuck at my house in the beginning of lockdown, she couldn't go home. So it was such a strange time. And so this whole period of time, besides all of that that happened, first of all, we decided this was the time for mom to come live near me because she received her Parkinson's diagnosis. She really needed help. And so I also ended up clearing out my parents' house which was a very formidable job. And I also ended up selling my parents' house which was something, I've actually never sold a house before. So I did that too. We found a place for my mom to live. I mean, It's funny how I can just say that like it's a sentence, but each of those things was like a massive, frightening, huge undertaking. I mean, it's just been big, a lot of change. So this whole thing where mom lives near me now, this is the first time in 22 years that I've lived near my mom. And I'm so glad we're doing it. But our relationship has changed. And I am most definitely, well, I am not a direct caretaker. She is living in an independent living apartment. She needs a lot of my help. And certainly on these trips, I did all the, I carried everything, I did all the door opening. I was the person who did all the physical work. So, it's a whole new shift, a whole new relationship with my mom.

Doug French:

See, I love the way you talked about these momentous things that you did and it's like, yeah had to say them in like a simple sentence seems to give them terrible shrift in terms of recognizing how altering they are of you as a person. Do you feel any more adult as a result of it?

Asha Dornfest:

Oh my gosh, I call myself a fake grown-up sometimes because I think to myself--

Doug French:

Well, we all do at some point.

Asha Dornfest:

I think that's the discovery, you know. I'm gonna be 54 and I'm like geez you know I thought by now maybe

Doug French:

An ageless 54 by the way, so whatever you're eating out in Portland, I'll have several barrels delivered.

Asha Dornfest:

Right, right, right. Yeah, you, too, can eat seven pounds of kale a week. 

Doug French:

Hey, the Dornfest diet, man, you and Rael, between the two of you and your ageless beauty, good heavens.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, enough is said about this. I think the fact is we all now realize there is no arrival. There is no being a grownup. There is only growing up. And we continue to do it, I think. And yeah, I think that's the thing. You know, when people say, "oh, I moved my mom into a retirement community," that one tiny little statement is like describing the universe in one word. It is just... I could spend the rest of my life talking about it.

Magda Pecsenye:

Before you do it, when somebody says, "I moved my mom into assisted living," it sounds like, remember those moves that you used to do when you were in your super, super early 20s where you could move everything that you had in a cab from one apartment to another?

Asha Dornfest:

So true!

Magda Pecsenye:

And I think because there's not a whole lot of room in an assisted living, people think it's like that. They don't understand that it's culling down, figuring out what your parent needs and what your parent can stand to live without. They have all of their things that they've had forever and you, they have to edit all that down to what they really need. And sometimes you're dealing with memory issues, too, and then you have to figure out what to do with the rest of their stuff and then you have to figure out how to sell a house. I mean I went through it with my grandmother's stuff and then with my uncle and then to a certain extent with my parents. And like every time it's just like, wow, why isn't there some sort of ceremony for when you finish this?

Asha Dornfest:

Absolutely. There should be more around this.

Magda Pecsenye:

Signing the papers at the closing is not a big enough deal.

Asha Dornfest:

I thought the same thing about empty nesting. There really should be more ritual around these transitions. But to speak to what you were saying about the downsizing process and even the thought process that goes into before the downsizing, all of that, it is so huge and momentous and it's different for everyone. I will say one practical thing for you, systems thinker, and that is there's an entire industry or field of expertise called "senior move managers." There are actually people and companies that one can hire, generally at significant expense, but they do exist and they're amazing, who help with the decluttering part, the actual moving part, the packing part, all of that stuff. There are people to help. 

Doug French:

You know what's really fascinating to me is the fact that Magda's had so much time to bring up the Swedish Art of Death Cleaning and hasn't done so yet.

Magda Pecsenye:

Don't think I'm not thinking about it, Doug.

Doug French:

I know you're thinking about it! That's why I was waiting for you to interject.

Magda Pecsenye:

Because you keep resisting watching the show.

Doug French:

No, I watched one. It's another hoarding show. That's all it is.

Magda Pecsenye:

It's a SWEDISH hoarding show.

Doug French:

Exactly, which means they have more libertarian views about body parts and stuff.

Magda Pecsenye:

Well, that's probably true.

Asha Dornfest:

Body parts?

Doug French:

All right, I saw one episode and this woman apparently collected exotic dildos.

Asha Dornfest:

Oh, I see. Literally body parts. Okay.

Doug French:

Yeah.

Asha Dornfest:

And she had to declutter her dildo collection.

Doug French:

She had to declutter her dildo collection as a way of, you know, they talk a lot about how people who carry a lot of stuff are living in the past and are kind of held down by their nostalgia for how they think they've already peaked. And this is just now running out the string and you surround yourself with the comforts of things that remind you of better times, and that retards your process going forward. And so there's a lot of conversation. One of the three people involved is a psychotherapist and talks about stuff like, what are you clinging to? What do you think about? What are your favorite times? Do you try to detach the intrinsic value of something and recognize that ultimately it's just a thing and ideas and memories are in your mind. They don't need to be reinforced by having a pile of stuff, dildos or otherwise, that clutter your home, but also clutter your forward thinking.

Asha Dornfest:

Mm-hmm. That's all true. It's all true. And it's such a complex process. And it takes time. I guess one thing I would say about all of this is that as overwhelming and difficult and inconvenient and all that stuff, I will say that as an only child, I have lived in fear of my parents getting old and dying for my whole life, especially my dad. In some ways it almost kept me being like a kid myself. And so, you know, it's interesting you said, "Did you grow up a little bit?" That is part of what helped me grow up, realizing that I could survive this. Not only that, I could learn from it. And that process of going through all those things, just those things that really do look sometimes like trash. It was like an archeological project into my own family history, and it gave me something. It's like parenting, it's the hardest thing and it's the most joyful thing, and it's the most painful thing and it's the most wonderful thing, and it's all the things. It's everything everywhere all at once, you know? And so it was the same when it came to helping my mom move and everything surrounding my dad's death.

Doug French:

As an oldest child, I feel somewhat the same. I'm gobsmacked that my parents are in their mid-80s and still with us and together and autonomous for the moment. I know I'm on borrowed time. I know inevitably I'll have to confront all these things about a system I don't understand. And even though, you know, there are helpful services, they're also parasitic services. You know, they are making money off of your vulnerability and your need for assistance. And there's a part of me that will never dislodge the idea that they're going to take advantage of a situation and look at like a very valuable armoire and say, yeah, I could probably get about 30 bucks for this. 

Asha Dornfest:

Yep.

Doug French:

There's that level of mistrust that just is in my DNA, unfortunately. But when you talk about dreading the idea that your father would ultimately leave us,

Asha Dornfest:

Mm-hmm.

Doug French:

and he ended up leaving very abruptly,

Asha Dornfest:

Yes.

Doug French:

if you had the opportunity, and again,

Asha Dornfest:

No, please ask.

Doug French:

Would you rather have had the opportunity, would you rather he were diagnosed with something where you would have a finite longer amount of time to kind of bond with him in that way and see him out in a much more of a slow motion process or was it actually, in a way, to have him leave so abruptly, did that spare any of your despair or was it kind of like ripping the bandaid off quickly?

Asha Dornfest:

Hmm, that is such a good question. I'm so glad you asked me because I literally welcome the opportunity to talk about things like this. My dad's very sudden death, I am grateful for it in that he didn't have to experience, really, decline and the fear or you know whatever that comes with that. My dad was a daily exerciser, he was unbelievable. I mean, this man had a six pack at 85. He exercised every day of his life.

Doug French:

Well, my dad does, too, but that's just while he's watching golf.

Asha Dornfest:

Oh my God! My dad enjoyed his six packs as well. Of all kinds. But anyway, for his sake, I'm glad that it, well, not glad. You know what I mean?

Doug French:

By the way, I'm not surprised that your first answer was a selfless one.

Asha Dornfest:

Well, for me, I certainly wish that I had time. Because my dad, he was sedated for the last period of time. I couldn't talk to him. But, you know, I think the bottom line is there's no way I can answer this because when I think about the fear that I've carried all my life, like the literal, like I had to go to a therapist to discuss this fear, and have a therapist tell me that I would be okay and that I would survive this, long, actually long before my dad ever died. I would I would walk down the street and burst into tears in the middle of a day thinking that this would happen in the future. That's how scared I was. So the fact that this period of time was so brief, this period of like "oh no what's going to happen?". It was not long, because very quickly we knew what was going to happen. In some ways I think that's probably a good thing. And all that said, this sort of like normal-sounding person that is having this conversation with you right now, that person did not exist for about three years. So between my dad's death and the pandemic, I was devastated and I wasn't operating very well, you know? So, the grief process was excruciating. 

Doug French:

I suspected that. I wanted to reach out and you never know what to say except to say, "Look, I'm out here thinking about you and wishing all the best for you and your family." And you never know how intrusive that could be at any given moment.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, I think that's always the best thing to say. And very rarely is it intrusive, you know? But I am here to say that my therapist was right all those years ago. I made it through. I made it through and I'm here. And not only am I here, but I'm happy. My dad had a good life and I'm happy. My mom's still here. We're managing and it's okay.

Doug French:

And you've got her close by. So she's going to live out her life with her daughter right nearby. And that's got to be a great, again, thinking forward. This is your new normal, which is in most ways a lot better.

Asha Dornfest:

It is, and I say this given the fact that my mom's and my relationship has been quite complicated over my lifetime. It's not like it's just been like, "Woohoo! Me and mom!" I mean, we've had our problems. We really have, and we needed distance for some time, too. I don't mean to say that it's just all hunky dory and it's all so easy, but relationships can evolve and ours has.

Doug French:

Well, this trip sounds like, in part, it serves as like an exorcism,

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah.

Doug French:

in many ways, to kind of finally commit the last three terrible years to the past and kind of announce that this is what we're doing now and we're not going to be weighed down by that. Grief is part of us now. We'll always miss your dad. And I imagine you and she may have had some discussions about that you may have avoided before. I know lots of people who grieve with their remaining parent. But not nearly as intimately as they might like just because it's not the right time or they're just not built the same way. But there's a lightness there. I get the sense that this kind of was, it purged a lot of the toxins or whatever remaining detritus that reminded you of how crappy the past three years have been and it's like enough, enough of that. Let's move on.

Asha Dornfest:

That's so perceptive, Doug, because you're right, it was. It really was a threshold of sorts. And it's interesting when you say, you know, "processing grief together." I process things pretty deeply. You know, I'm pretty philosophical and I think about deep stuff and my mom's just like, "Yeah, I don't wanna talk about it. I don't wanna think about it." It's not that she's unwilling, but that's not where she goes. We don't approach grief the same way. We did not respond the same way. We're still not in the same place. And, we went through it together. So we were sort of doing our own little parallel things that were very different, but we were at least doing them in concert.

Magda Pecsenye:

Well, it seems like it was the movement aspect and the traveling aspect of it that was really key for your mom. Because when I heard that you were taking this trip, these trips with your mom, I was like, "Oh, this seems like a movie!" Almost like generic bucket list to do with your aging parent, kind of.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, right.

Magda Pecsenye:

And now hearing you talk about it, it's your mom's modality, the travel.

Asha Dornfest:

Totally.

Magda Pecsenye:

And it makes me think like, oh, there's nothing wrong with not going on a road trip with your parent if a road trip isn't what is going to be meaningful or have any sort of currency for your parents.

Asha Dornfest:

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I'm so glad you said that because it's not like, "Now listeners, you should take a road trip with your parents if you really want to be a good kid."

Magda Pecsenye:

Right.

Asha Dornfest:

This is not that at all. My dad and mom took so many cross-country road trips. It's ridiculous. And, this was very much, what can my mom and I do that's fun? That we both care about? So it was very particular to the two of us. 

Magda Pecsenye:

Other people wouldn't have been able to do it. I mean, I'm sure there are people who are listening who are thinking about the idea of being in a hotel room with their parent and thinking that it would be the worst. Like, they just wouldn't be able to bear it.

Asha Dornfest:

Totally, you know, and again, I think that's the thing. Like we should all figure out what works, you know? Like I just, I grew up doing that. So that's why for me, it's okay. My husband, when I said, "I'm gonna do this," he said, "How could you possibly do that?" Like my husband could never, ever do that. No, he could not have come with us on this trip. It just happened to work for us.

Doug French:

And there was a lot of overlap in terms of the things both you and your mom wanted to do. You could find that compromise and you can negotiate, I guess, when you need to.

Asha Dornfest:

You know, like we went and saw an IMAX movie. Who doesn't like IMAX, right? We looked at beautiful viewpoints. We both love scenery. So that was easy. It definitely took flexibility on my part, but we generally are both similar enough in our tastes and flexible enough on the details that we could make it work.

Doug French:

Now she's also acclimating to a new place to live. I mean, she's around her peers and hopefully fitting in there, but how much responsibility do you feel as the Portlandian by comparison to kind of help smooth her transition as much as possible?

Asha Dornfest:

That's a good question. I am really setting some boundaries there more for myself than for my mom. First of all, want to respect that she is an adult. She is not my kid. So I don't want to treat her like my kid.

Doug French:

The muscle memory, though, makes you think you might catch yourself treating her that way even though she's not.

Magda Pecsenye:

Right, like looking up the schedules for pickleball class.

Asha Dornfest:

As much as mom and I would love to go check out Portland, it's really important for me, first of all, to maintain boundaries in my own life, prioritize my own friendships, not just basically move into my mom becoming my social life because that's possible. She needs to also bond with the people where she's living. If that's something that she wants to do. I mean, that's up to her. But if I'm constantly there filling every conversational need and picking up every single grocery and doing every little thing, it's just not in any way helpful to her in the longterm.

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah, you can't be her only person.

Asha Dornfest:

This is about creating a new home. Yeah. 

Doug French:

So many parallels here with an 18-year-old child, too. I can't do everything for you, either.

Asha Dornfest:

It's really true. It's so interesting, all the parallels, and at the same time, really recognizing that, first of all, my mom is a person with a lifetime of experience. And second of all, she's very different than I am. And I don't have authority over her. And finally, she's a person who's contending with the final years of her life. I mean, she's in a very different place in terms of her priorities, in terms of how she wants to spend her time, even how mindful she wants to be about that. Generally, she doesn't wanna think about it. And here I am like, let's think about it. And mom's like, "What do you want for dinner?" 

Doug French:

So we have, do we have your mom's non-willingness to discuss this, to thank for Parent of Adults? Because all of that thinking and discussion and perception had to go somewhere?

Asha Dornfest:

You mean...my newsletter? Is that what you're talking about?

Doug French:

Oh, do you have a newsletter?! Oh!

Asha Dornfest:

What?!

Doug French:

Wow. That's, what a coincidence. So do we. 

Asha Dornfest:

Well, it is sort of ironic because I started this newsletter on Substack called Parent of Adults because I thought it would be really nice to write about this transition to becoming the parent of people who are, first of all, adults and second of all, people who don't live with me anymore. And there didn't seem to be a heck of a lot of people talking about it. I kind of wonder what's going on with other people. 

Magda Pecsenye:

I feel like the only people talking about it are really maudlin. 

Asha Dornfest:

Oh my gosh.

Magda Pecsenye:

Like there's a whole lot about, <overdramatically> "Oh my god, you're moving your child into college, how are you gonna survive??? You need to take your white knuckles of the death grip off them as you cry, as you leave them in their dorm room" and all this stuff.

Doug French:

That is one of your best Laura Petri impersonations I've ever heard.

Magda Pecsenye:

But how useful is that tone??

Asha Dornfest:

We could talk about this for many hours. Exactly! When I started looking things up, it was like, I'm not exactly cheering that my children are leaving, but at the same time, that tone is not my tone.

Magda Pecsenye:

Right.

Asha Dornfest:

And right, so anyway, I started this newsletter. Really, it's not just about me telling my story. Really, I wanna just talk to people and hear their stories and just talk to people about this stuff. And... then all the stuff with my mom is happening. And it's so amazing to me how there are so many parallels. And not only that, so many people want to talk about their aging parents. I mean, it's sort of like, well, the kids are doing OK. We don't have to talk about that. Let's talk about our aging parents. I mean, that is part and parcel of this time for many of us. So it is pretty interesting that all of these things are coming together with the parallel storyline of me being a fake grownup myself. So it's like, "Who's the adult here? Will the real adult please stand up?"

Doug French:

But doesn't it make sense that we're the generation of people who began writing about our families online and the big story was cloth diapers or disposables, as ridiculous as that was and is.

Asha Dornfest:

Oh, those were the days.

Doug French:

Weren't they though? It was a different time.

Asha Dornfest:

Those fascinating conversations.

Doug French:

But now it makes sense that people who've been doing this for 20 years, writing about our lives, writing about our families, writing about our responsibilities, writing about how our lives are transformed when our kids arrived, our lives are equally transformed when our kids go. 

Asha Dornfest:

Totally.

Doug French:

And it's especially interesting, too, 'cause it's Parent of Adults and you never indicate how old those adults are because in a way, even though you're not your parent's parent, you're a caretaker of your parent. And so, I mean, to me, that struck me as a straight-up reference to sandwich parenting in that I'm a parent of 18 and 20-year-olds, but I'm also fulfilling a parent role to an 80-something. And I need to find the similarities in that process. And I need to find the differential in that process because I am my daughter's mother, but I'm not my mother's mother.

Asha Dornfest:

Right, right. You know, all the parallels only struck me later on. And you know, it's interesting, Doug, what you're saying about the fact that this generation of parents, you know, we sort of started off that initial crop of parent bloggers and sharers online. And now here we are. I predict that these next couple of years, there is going to be a flourishing of content about like, this midlife and these transitions. I think our generation of bloggers, now I might be being idealistic and naive here, this would not be the first time, but I feel like we are poised to sort of recoalesce that community at this particular transition and talk about it in a way that maybe hearkens back to the past in sort of a kinder, gentler era of the internet. I don't know, I think this is an amazing time for us to all come back together, not in some organized way, you know, just but even just like this, the three of us talking like this.

Magda Pecsenye:

I think that we are the generation that has sort of always felt like we've been bait and switched at every stage. And when we figured out that we could talk about it publicly on the internet in whatever format, we decided we were going to do that. That's why there's been this huge flourishing of everybody talking about perimenopause and menopause. And the big complaint is: "Nobody told me this was going to happen." Because our mothers weren't allowed to talk about it. Even the women who are only 15 years older than we were weren't allowed to talk about it. So yeah, of course we're going to talk about it. And that was why I wanted to do the podcast with Doug was because it was like, "Oh, okay. So now we can talk about this again." And part of it also I think is when your kids are in your home, it's very hard to talk about the experience of parenting without sharing your kids' details, which you don't want to do. But then once they're out of your house, you can talk about your experience again without exposing their specific details.

Asha Dornfest:

That's true and that's very interesting. In fact, that actually was why I named my newsletter Parent of Adults because it is very much a story about me. It's not that the newsletter's about me, it's that we as parents have our own story to tell and share and it's not really about our kids. Certainly it is informed by our kids, our adult kids, but it is not about them, it's really about us, you know, and we could say that about this empty nest period as well. It's really about us now. And the interesting thing is, while we can tell our own stories and basically leave our kids out of it, the fact is, unlike when they were little babies, our kids can subscribe to our newsletter, so can our moms.

Magda Pecsenye:

Ha ha!

Asha Dornfest:

So it's a very interesting audience issue because these are now public conversations. And when we started all those years ago with blogging, do you remember how it was back then? We would blog and there was this small number of people who were blogging.

Magda Pecsenye:

Mm-hmm.

Asha Dornfest:

And if we told our friend on the street, oh yeah, I have a blog, they'd say, what's a blog? 

Magda Pecsenye:

Right?

Asha Dornfest:

So there was the separation.

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah.

Asha Dornfest:

There's no more separation. It's now everyone, because everyone's either on social media or they're, you know, whatever, listening to podcasts or whatever they're doing. So it's an interesting, interesting blending and sort of evolution of how our kids are involved in our stories. You know, ultimately, hopefully, I believe they will know me better by the stuff that I write. And, and I talk to them very clearly about permission. I talk to my mom, too.

Doug French:

Well, I love the fact that our boys are going to have reams of things that Magda and I have written over the years. In fact, I've shown them the blog post that announced our divorce and hundreds and hundreds of comments wishing us well.

Asha Dornfest:

I remember that blog post. Boy.

Doug French:

And assuring us we were going to do fine because we had genuine support from people who either had gone through it, but it was the exact type of support that I know I needed.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah.

Doug French:

So it's a great footprint to leave for your kids and grandkids. Imagine, I would love to have as much information about my parents as our kids have about us.

Asha Dornfest:

Well, I'm thinking about the fact that your kids are going to have your literal voices. This podcast, conversations between the two of you. Seriously, it's amazing. 

Doug French:

Well, I guess it's better than have them thinking of my voice only in the terms of asking them to empty the dishwasher again.

Asha Dornfest:

I'm like to my daughter, can you set the table? I was like, dang!

Magda Pecsenye:

I guess I hadn't really thought about that, that there's going to be so much. When my grandfather died, he just had paintings and paintings and paintings and drawings and all this stuff and at a certain point it was like wow, none of us have enough wall space for how prolific my grandfather was, and we started giving them away to people who wanted them and got criticism for that.

Asha Dornfest:

Really? Criticism!

Magda Pecsenye:

Like, "Oh, how could you give away that painting by your grandfather?" And it's like, "Well, I've got six more at home that are better." What am I gonna do?

Doug French:

"Let's have a brief discussion about how much your opinion matters."

Asha Dornfest:

Who would say such a thing? .

Doug French:

You know, speaking of legacy, I had an earth-shattering moment last year. My parents sat me down. I was visiting and they said, "We'd like you to write our eulogies." And for them to even talk about that, for whatever reason, we just didn't talk a lot about the inevitable. And then for them to say, "You know what, we'd like you to write our eulogies." And my father handed me a manila envelope full of stuff. Bam! "Here's stuff I've written. Stuff that's been written about me. Here's my timeline, the Navy, the college."

Magda Pecsenye:

He basically had a press kit?

Doug French:

He had a press kit. Yeah, he put together a press kit and it landed on my lap with a thud. Now my mom doesn't have a press kit. So what we did instead, we just sat and talked about her life for about three hours. And I have a draft email of all the things she'd like to be included in her eulogy, about art school and living in New York and all the rest of it. And so given the abruptness of your father's departure, first of all, did you write his eulogy?

Asha Dornfest:

No. so. First of all, abrupt departure, like you said. Second of all, my dad was a completely quiet person. He was a man of very, very few words. So us having a conversation with the press kit or not, it would have been very, very brief. And then the main reason I would have, but the pandemic shut everything down. It was not possible to have a memorial. It wasn't possible to have a funeral. It wasn't possible to do anything. Plus we got trapped up in Portland because of lockdown. I was down in the Bay Area while my dad was in the hospital. My dad passed away. I spent a month there helping my mom organize things. We came up to Portland, we thought, just temporarily, to watch my daughter in a school play, and then my mom got trapped here for lockdown. So we were also in a place where we did not have access to my parents' friends or anybody. So there was no eulogy. There was an obituary, which I wrote, but that's what happened. And I think that what you're describing, Doug, that sounds like a total gift.  First of all, a gift for them, because I know that you'll write something amazing. But second of all, for them to give that to you, to trust you with that, first of all, to be brave enough to even suggest such a thing, basically to go there, but also just to open up those conversations. I mean, that's just incredible.

Doug French:

Now has your dad had his service?

Asha Dornfest:

I don't know that my mom is really capable of it. My mom has really been hesitant. Oh, that's a whole long story. I think rituals are so important and coming together is so important. And I think part of the reason that my grief was so long and so difficult to process was that I had no access to those rituals.

Doug French:

Yeah, the idea of coming together to grieve was withheld from you.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, yeah. And for one reason or another, a Zoom memorial, that just wasn't possible or even conceivable for my mom. So it just was out of reach. 

Doug French:

Well, did writing the obituary help at all or was it still too close to the bone?

Asha Dornfest:

Way too close. I did so much during those early weeks and I don't exactly know how I did it. So no, that wasn't. I have since done a bunch of things privately actually that have helped. So yeah, that's a whole nother story. It really is actually.

Doug French:

Well, that's reason enough to have you on again to talk about it.

Asha Dornfest:

Let's talk about death some more!

Doug French:

I respect the fact that this was a private process for you.

Asha Dornfest:

I actually enjoy talking about it. Yes, it's private, but actually I love being able to talk about this because it's so important. Strangely, there is joy in it. It's not the kind of joy like happy joy, but there is something elemental and grounding that I have experienced and I feel like, I don't know, I'm on the other side and I can talk to people about it.

Doug French:

Well, it sounds like the private nature in many ways was sort of imposed on you because I mean, you have a great husband, you have great kids, you have a great mom,

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah.

Doug French:

but you don't have any siblings that there's a particular grief that siblings can share that's unique.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah,

Doug French:

And you don't have that. One of my best friends is an only child who just buried his parents within a year of each other. And he, we talked about this a lot actually, about how he processed his own grief because he really had nowhere to go. I

Asha Dornfest:

There's just one little personal coda to that aspect of going through it alone as an only child. I have some amazing cousins, one of whom is my cousin in India, who is my--so my dad was from India and my dad's brother lives in India. His daughter is somebody who was very close to my dad and in many ways knew him almost better than I did because they both spoke my dad's native language and I don't. So that is something that's really, really lucky. And I think if there are any only children listening to this, I just wanna say that there are people that are ready to share this with you. I found those people. You're not gonna go through this completely alone.

Magda Pecsenye:

And I think there's also a benefit to being an only and finding those people who want to go through it with you because not all sibling groups can go through it well together.

Asha Dornfest:

Very true.

Magda Pecsenye:

When my brother and I have gone through it, we were very intentional about verbalizing how we were going to stick together in the process and what was going to be important and what was just going to fall by the wayside, because we had seen too many sibling groups fall apart over the death of an older relative and different priorities. And so I think the assumption that it's easier if you have siblings to share it with is not always true. For me, it's very true.

Asha Dornfest:

I agree with you and there are those people who very strangely, and they regretted their phrasing but I understood what they were saying, they would just blurt out, "You're so lucky that you're doing this by yourself." Because what they were saying basically, and then they would look horrified like, "Did I just say that to Asha?"

Asha Dornfest:

But I understood what they meant, which was they had conflict with a sibling or a sibling who didn't show up or a sibling who really disappointed them, or worse, money problems, things like that. There's no straightforward path.

Doug French:

Well, speaking of those of Indian descent, have you read Dr. Gawande's book?

Asha Dornfest:

Absolutely.

Doug French:

Being Mortal?

Asha Dornfest:

Everybody should read that book. Atul Gawande is the author and the book is called Being Mortal and I think it's just an absolutely incredible book that makes you think differently about your own elderly relatives and their approaching transition, and not to be too euphemistic, but I mean it is a transition for the whole family. 

Doug French:

Yeah, have you read that Magda?

Magda Pecsenye:

No. I was going to borrow it from you. And I just haven't done it.

Doug French:

You can have mine. That's a whole other conversation, about how indispensible that book is, and how altering it is in terms of just reconsidering your place in the world.

Asha Dornfest:

I think the other thing that he did in that book, which in many ways, now that you're mentioning it, it informed our choice to go on this road trip and my choice to prioritize

Doug French:

Really?

Asha Dornfest:

it. Because one of the things that he talked about in that book was, instead of just focusing on the decline, asking them how do they want to live? How do they want to spend this time? What's enjoyable? And I know for my mom, I thought about that, like, okay, my mom's got a diagnosis on board. It's only going to go downhill from here. And so what can we do right now? Like what is the best possible way to spend this time right now? I never think about my life that way. And this, actually his book helped me help me think about that.

Doug French:

So what choices do you think are ahead of you now that this new arrangement is in place and your mom is in her new home and you've kind of cleared a few of the cobwebs? How would you like your mom to spend the rest of her life? What other plans do you have? 

Asha Dornfest:

Well, interestingly, part of the urgency I feel is actually to start living my life with my husband. I mean, we've been living tbis whole time, obviously, but the conversations with my mom, but obviously these last few years remind me that my husband and I also don't know how much time we've got. We're healthy right now. We could do some stuff. We need to do some stuff right now. So that part of my mom living here is also helping her embrace this new chapter of her life and maintain the fact that part of that is embracing me living my life. So I cannot now make my life all about making my mom's dreams come true. I have got to focus on making my own dreams come true and including my mom everywhere I possibly can. And so, there's gonna be some travel for my husband and me for sure. But when I think about my mom and me, it's sort of like I wanna spend everyday time together. That's something that we can do now that we couldn't do for a long time because we live so far apart. You know, I go to doctor's appointments with my mom, that kind of stuff. I'm not saying that's like "woohoo! doctor's appointments!" and my mom's like, "oh god, not another one," right?

Asha Dornfest:

But I'm really glad to be doing that kind of stuff with her. Also, there's a lot of stuff in Portland and in the Pacific Northwest. I'm really excited to show her this town. I'm really excited for her to be able to spend more time with my kids and it's a shame that she moved here right as they left, you know So they're not here often either. These road trips are sort of like shiny and, you know, sexy, if you want to call it that, like whoa big road trip with my mom but really

Doug French:

Shiny Sexy Road Trips, that's the book. Look for it in spring of 25.

Asha Dornfest:

Sexy sexy, with the with the walker and everything, but really it's about this everyday time with my mom. I mean that's where it was at with my kids if I really think about it. I mean, I loved all those trips to Disneyland and all the other stuff, but I really want to focus on what we can do right here.

Doug French:

Well, Asha, this has been a great discussion, and it could be five more, because there's so much more we could talk about in terms of the complex nature of our relationship with our parents, how it changes when they become a bit more infirm and need more help from us, and the boundaries that requires. I'm such a big fan of Parent of Adults. I'm so glad you're writing again. I totally get why you weren't for a while. I'm so glad that you're re-emerging in this format because if anyone can set forth to be the voice of a particular cohort of people who are going through this, the things you've endured, the things you've grown from, I'm so glad you're writing about it and providing a resource for other people to have and interact with. And, knowing you as I have for 20 years, it's just so great to see your face again. So thanks for coming on.

Asha Dornfest:

20 years. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. And Magda, I think we figured out that I think you and I were internet friends before Doug and I even.

Magda Pecsenye:

I think so!

Asha Dornfest:

I'm so grateful to be able to talk to you about these things, just that we can even talk about these things. Not to mention that we're recording it and sharing it and all that kind of good stuff. I mean, you know, podcasting is the most incredible thing and I was very sad to stop podcasting, but it became so clear to me that my life had changed so dramatically, so much that I needed to catch up with that life before I could really talk about it. So yes, I'm thrilled to be writing again. I think it's important, but really I'm thrilled to just be connecting again. And share and laugh about it, too. There's a lot that's funny about all of this stuff.

Doug French:

That's how we literally manage to whistle past the graveyard.

Asha Dornfest:

Okay. Right.

Doug French:

And if you ever do decide to go back to podcasting, I mean, you have both the voice and the voice to be a huge part of it. So whatever you're going to do, you know the two of us will support you to the end.

Asha Dornfest:

Thank you. I feel the same about you.

Magda Pecsenye:

I don't have anymemory for years. Like, I don't have any memory of which year was which.

Asha Dornfest:

No, yeah, I don't either. All I know is that they were formative years for us, not only as writers, but as parents, you know? And we went through it all together.

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah.

Asha Dornfest:

Like you said, Magda, you know, like this is not what I expected. This is not what they told me this was gonna be like. That... brought us together.

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah, it absolutely did.

Doug French:

Sorry, go ahead.

Asha Dornfest:

Now that's it for me.

Doug French:

No, I cut off Magda, so if you wanted to say it, you know, "It absolutely did" or whatever.

Magda Pecsenye:

Oh, you want me to say, "Oh, it absolutely did!" This is the curse of us podcasting together, is every time I try to say something, he says something, and then he stops to let me say something, and then I say something and he says something.

Asha Dornfest:

I'm just imagining us all making that finger motion like pss

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Doug French:

The cameras are supposed to help stave that off and are

Asha Dornfest:

Well...

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, but you know, it's also like a practice thing, you know, like, you know, the that whole cadence of podcasting, maybe it just, you know, takes a little practice to get there. But whatever it is, I love being able to talk to both of you at the same time and see you. And not just because of our friendship, but the but the way that we're recording all of this together, you know, this isn't an interview, this is a conversation.

Doug French:

Asha, it's great to talk to you, and for the record, let us know once again where you're writing, where people can subscribe, hear more about what you're doing and how beautiful your writing is, and read more about your trip with your mom.

Asha Dornfest:

All right, well, if you're interested in the trip with my mom, you can follow me on Instagram at @AshaDornfest. I have a little highlight that has a bunch of pictures of our road trip, so you can check that out from Instagram stories. But really what I want is for you to subscribe to my newsletter, Parent of Adults. It's on Substack, and the reason I want you to subscribe is because I really would like to talk to you and hear what's going on with you, if any of this stuff resonated with you. So, like this podcast, that newsletter is a conversation. The address is ashadornfest.substack.com. 

Doug French:

Yeah, I imagine this is going to be an evergreen discussion topic as well, because the more you know, the more you find out how much you don't know.

Asha Dornfest:

And the more you just, everyone goes through it and it's like I remember saying like, "Why doesn't anyone talk about this? Why didn't I know this? Why didn't someone tell me this?" just like with parenting.

Magda Pecsenye:

Yeah, it is just like with parenting.

Asha Dornfest:

Yeah, and there's not like a whole huge influencer culture around it of people telling us what to do and it's not like our actual culture tells us what to do either. 

Doug French:

Thank you for listening to Episode Six of the When the Flames Go Up podcast with Magda Pecsenye and me, Doug French. Our guest has been Asha Dornfest. We'll have another discussion about Being Mortal very soon, I'm very sure, but we'll see you next time. Thanks very much, bye bye. 

Boppy closing music.