Episode 60: Transcript

"Balancing the opportunities of a new life amid the chaos of your old one." - with Carlotta Stankiewicz

Oct 17, 2024

Magda Pecsenye Zarin: You're going to be interviewing me about the bike club?

Doug French: No, of course not. Why? You have zero interest in that.

Magda: Okay. I have interest in the fact that you have a podcast about biking because you are passionate about biking and you're passionate about bringing the biking community together. So I am interested in that, but it's olive cream cheese. Some people like it. I do not.

Doug: I love that we have that together, the olive cream cheese reference.

Magda: Yeah, when did I make that up? I don't know, like 1998, something like that. You were eating olive cream cheese.

Doug: And it stands the test of time. Absolutely.

Magda: It's great that you like it. I do not. You know, it's fascinating to me what people get really into and start collecting. And I don't mean “collecting” like you're just displaying it or whatever, but like you're genuinely see a difference in use for different situations and so you really feel like you need to have complete coverage for everything. And it's very easy for me to be like “Why would you need more than two bikes?” But I am also a person who tends to pack n+1 pairs of shoes where n is the number of days I'll be somewhere.

Doug: Well how many pairs of knitting needles do you have?

Magda: Oh, a lot!

Doug: There you go. And each one serves a different purpose, right?

Magda: Sort of, but sometimes I have doubles just because I have multiple projects going on at the same time.

Doug: Right, but you still have more than you need, essentially, but you have them because they will serve a purpose at some point.

Magda: Need is a relative term.

Doug: Right. Well, that's cycling in a nutshell, as I'm coming to discover it, because people go out and they drop dough on some of these things. You know, these e-bikes, they go for five figures.

Magda: That's amazing to me.

Doug: And it's kind of amazing, too, as I acknowledge my mood tonight. I got to say, we've talked before about how I'm in such a great mood after I've been doing something nuts. Well, if I've been home all day while painters have been power washing my house and terrifying my cat, that's a whole different vibe. The west facade is in the worst shape, and that's right behind my desk. And so they're just scraping and talking about their lives. I got an earful about who needs to marry whom. I mean, that's, I wanted to go outside and, you know, have him bear his soul to me and tell me who he's voting for. Um, no, I actually did ask them. And one of them said, “the main issue I have is I don't want my sons to be drafted.”

Magda: I completely get that.

Doug: So talk to me about Carlotta. This is an amazing episode. As I've been editing it, I've been trying to look at what relationship from her early life is in good shape, and I couldn't think of one.

Magda: Okay, so first of all, her name is Carlotta. You need to tell us her last name.

Doug: Stankevicz.

Magda: Stankevicz. Okay.

Doug: I think what people are going to enjoy from this conversation was, despite the fact that her childhood family, her mom, her dad, her sister, and herself... are riddled with dysfunction. She's somehow risen from that and has a lot of love in her life. She's about to get remarried. She's on good terms with her ex-husband. She's got a couple of daughters, and the four of them get along well. So that's what I'm taking away from this. But my God, what a shitstorm.

Magda: Well, yeah, and I think it's interesting to me because I have noticed that Season 2 seems to be, I don't know, this seems kind of cheesy to say, more positive in tone.

Doug: Especially the way you said it. More positive.

Magda: I have noticed that this season we just seem to be a little more proactive and positive about stuff. And I think that's reflected in Carlotta's story. Because she has a lot of stuff going on now that would rightfully make someone super cranky and yet she just is kind of making these clear-eyed decisions. You know, like her idea of trying to have a good relationship with her father because he is trying to make amends, and figuring out what her limits are with her mom. I am just getting a call from a 248 number and I don't know what it is, so they can just go to voicemail.

Doug: It's about voting.

Magda: Oh, I'm sure it's about voting. I get eight zillion texts a day, and a lot of them are offering me money to text people to tell them to vote for whoever.

Doug: I keep getting texts from a group called We Will Not Stop Texting, which is ominous.

Magda: It seems like they might as well call that group We're Gonna Hit You in the Head with a Bat and We Won't Stop.

Doug: “Hi, this is John with Drop Your Pants and Bend Over.”

Magda: That's so funny to me.

Doug: And that's where we are. Oh, boy. We can't top that, so let's just hear Carlotta's story. Yeah.

Magda: Yeah.

Doug: And derive optimism from it, as I have.

Magda: I mean, that's the thing. She's got a lot of bad stuff going on. She's got a lot of good stuff going on that could be stressful. And she's just making very clear decisions about it and is deciding that she's just going to enjoy the good stuff.

Doug: Yeah.

Magda: And I appreciate that a lot.

Doug: And luckily there's a lot coming her way, so good for her. Yeah.

Magda: Yeah.

[Theme music fades in, plays, and fades out.]

Magda: I literally just got a text message from my mother telling me that her Harris Walz and Amy Klobuchar yard signs were stolen out of her front yard the other night. Like, what even? What is wrong with the world?

Carlotta: But maybe it was just somebody who wanted them for their yard.

Magda: Maybe.

Carlotta: I'm hoping for the slightly less evil reason.

Magda: I'm hoping so. She lives in a college town. It was their Homecoming weekend, so maybe it was just like drunk revelers.

Carlotta: I remember for our senior prank, we took all the for sale signs from all the neighborhoods around the school and put them in front of the school. So that was our, our big, um, maybe they took them all and put them in some Trump voters yard as a joke. So would that be, and they went for a good cause.

Magda: Let's hope let's hope.

Carlotta: Yeah. Yeah.

Doug: And how much time did you spend here in Michigan? You were born here, right?

Carlotta: I was born outside of Detroit in Wayne, Michigan. I lived there till I was 10 and then we moved to Colorado and then to Virginia. And now to Texas where I've been for 32 years, which is crazy. It's way too hot.

Doug: So now has your dad been in Colorado essentially ever since you moved there when you were 10?

Carlotta: No. So he entered the army, entered the army band when he was a musician, played the bassoon and lots of other instruments. But he was a band teacher. Then he entered the army. That's when we moved to Colorado and then to Virginia. And then he and my mom split up. And he married a woman who also was in the army, got stationed in Germany. They went over to Germany. They split up. She came back to the States. He stayed there for like 25 years. And things were not going well when I would talk to him on the phone. So I went out there to see what was going on and got all his papers and finances in order. He's always dependent on other people to kind of take care of him. He's always found a partner, a woman to kind of take care of him.

Carlotta: And so he had some neighbors who were helping him out because his German girlfriend who he lived with in her apartment passed away like five years ago. And so he was there on his own. My sister lives in Colorado, doesn't travel a whole lot. And so I just went over to Germany to see how he was doing. And it was like, he needs to come back to the States. And then my eldest daughter was getting married last May. So we were like, I talked to my sister and she said, “Well, I'll bring him here to Colorado. ‘Cause they've got a great VA hospital and I can find him an apartment.” And so I was like, okay. So he did that and he's getting to the point where he's, his mind is not as good and wasn't a real, like doing a lot of stuff for himself anyways. And my sister and I have a kind of contentious relationship, and so we haven't been talking to each other recently.

Carlotta: And long story short, and that coincided with my also getting engaged and my deciding to leave my job, kind of ease into pre-retirement. was all just swirling around. I took a road trip out to Colorado to see my dad, take care of him and his like hygiene and stuff, not the best. And so like his bathroom was a complete mess. His kitchen, he had like a Tupperware of milk without a lid on it, sitting in the cabinet. And I was like, what is this dad? And he's like, I think it's milk. And I was like, why is it in the cabinet? He's like, I don't know. He can, you know, he's got his wits about him and everything, but it's just his memory is not good. It was interesting.

Doug: Now, I actually am very happy about the timing of this discussion because you just got back from Colorado. And what initially attracted me to this conversation was the idea that you're working out a relationship with your sister who lives near your dad. You've got your mom who's remarried all the way over in Virginia, and then you're in Texas. So at this point, which is kind of, as you mentioned, it's kind of a teardown in many ways as far as you're looking to rebuild something new and different with a husband and a new focus on what you want to do. How would you say your relationship with your dad is now? And how do you think that's going to impact your ability to care for him long distance?

Carlotta: Well, he wasn't around a lot when my sister and I were growing up. But I think we've somewhat made peace with that fact because he's been there sporadically over the years with us and our kids. She's got two kids. I've got two daughters who are now in their 20s and fleeing the coop. So there's kind of part of me that feels like I want to take care of him. I feel some sympathy and everything for him. It's both challenging for me, but also rewarding because he was very appreciative. I've helped him out a lot while I was there. You know, it's like life is too short, I think, to hold those resentments too long. And I just want him to feel comfortable and me to have whatever kind of relationship I can have these last few years. I don't know.

Doug: Did you ever like talk to him about that explicitly about repairing your relationship? Or is that one of those things you were just happy to let the boats kind of gravitate toward each other in the current again?

Carlotta: We talked a little bit about it and he's apologized in the past. He's not as self-aware as some people are and like would never consider going to therapy. But it was good. Good visit. And it's good when I see him. And my younger daughter lives in Fort Collins, about an hour from Denver. And so we went up and had dinner with her. And she was great with him. And he really appreciated that. And it was a challenge because I haven't talked to my sister in a while. She's the one who volunteered to kind of take on my dad in Colorado and be responsible for him. And I think she didn't realize how much work it was going to be. So she’s got resentment toward me for being in Texas, I guess. But that's a whole other ball of wax, I guess.

Doug: Yeah, that sounds like a discussion waiting to happen. I'm fascinated by the demands on your attention right now and how geographically diverse they are, because you've got a life to build in Texas. You've got a dad in Colorado. You've got a mom in Virginia. I mean, this probably changes from day to day. But if you break that down, what percent of your head is where at this point?

Carlotta: Right now I'm here in Austin because now I've got a 27-year-old daughter and she just bought a house. And so she's going to be taking some of the furniture that I'm getting rid of to make room for my fiance to move into my house. So I'm going to be helping her with her house as well as doing some minor renovations on my house. And then thinking about how to plan our dance party cleverly disguised as a wedding for next spring. Once Donald, that's my fiance, proposed to me and, you know, stuff was going on with my dad and my sister. And I just, I was, tired and burnt out at work. And that was kind of just what let me go. I'm not going to be able to do all that.

Doug: So you said yes out of just attrition more than anything else. You were like, fine, sure.

Carlotta: No, no, no. I'm saying when he proposed and I said yes, and then I realized we decided to combine households and then the stuff was going on with my dad. And I just was like, no, I don't want to have the stress of full-time work as well as all this other stuff swirling around. And I am really, really lucky that and privileged that I have saved up enough money and combining households and finances is going to provide some really good economies and that a little bit more financial security. So I'm able to take this opportunity to not have full-time employment. And so I'm really grateful that I'm able to do that. And so that was a decision that I made. And like today's the first week that I'm not going into work. And so I was talking to Donald this morning. I was like, I feel guilty. I feel like I should be working. I should be. It's really weird. And I'm also anxious. Like, what if we run out of money? What if, you know, and then I need to get a job, but I'm too old. Everybody's nobody's going to hire me. And there's ageism.

Doug: Well, think of this as like work. You know, you're still keeping busy. You know, this is something you need to attend to.

Carlotta: I've got plans. I've got all sorts of stuff I've got planned, you know, aside from all the house, you know, personal stuff. I've got lots of writing, you know, other projects going on. It's just... This is unusual for me. I have been gainfully employed since I was 15 and with a minor breaks for two pregnancies, you know, a couple months, and then I was laid off twice for my job in advertising. You know, both those times I freelanced. And then one time I worked on a book that I self-published. So it's like weird. And there's a little bit of guilt.

Doug: Well, and I appreciate that. And I think that's kind of where you are is emblematic of where a lot of people our age are in terms of everything we do is about balancing opportunities and responsibilities. And you clearly have an opportunity here and you're using it, as you mentioned privilege, and that's true. If you have that option, it makes sense to take it. But I'm just really glad that you get to meet Magda. In many ways, Carlotta has salient characteristics of both of us in that she and I love dorky wordplay.

Magda: Okay.

Doug: We have sent each other more puns over the years, and I'm still working on an anagram for your name, Carlotta. I mean, I'm going to take an afternoon and just go nuts at it because so many opportunities there.

Magda: The entire rest of the world uses Internet anagram-builders except Doug. Doug has to do it the old-fashioned way.

Doug: Analog, all right.

Carlotta: I appreciate that.

Doug: Just, you know, Scrabble tiles, assuming I can – assuming your name will be accommodated by this gravel sack. And speaking of names, I think you and Magda have a lot in common because you each have Eastern European names that weed out the insincere.

Carlotta: Right, right. And actually, Stankiewicz is my married name. So my fiance's last name is Kelley. And so everybody's asking, are you going to change your name? And that's another thing, this late in life, when he proposed and I said yes, and I was crying and I called friends and family and everything. And then I was like, are we going to have a wedding or are we just going to elope? And he's like, no. And I'm 59, he's 64. He said, I think we're going to have a party, you know, because that's who we are. And I was like, okay, all right.

Magda: Had he been married before?

Carlotta: Yes, he was married once and has two kids who are in their 30s.

Magda: I think it's a little different when you've both been married before. Because you kind of do have sort of like the freedom to do whatever it is that you want to in a way that, I don't know if men feel this pressure, but I know women who've gotten married later in life at an age at which they genuinely don't give a fuck about anything. If they hadn't been married before, if this is their first wedding, they do feel kind of an obligation like to their family, in a way that people who had a first wedding I think are just like, “Hey, whatever.”

Carlotta: Right, and that's like why I said a dance party disguised as a wedding, because that's all I want to do. I just want to go dance! Because at my daughter's wedding as part of their wedding invitation, they asked, you know, what's the one song that will get you out on the dance floor? So that was part of your RSVP. And so I went up and talked to the DJ who I was paying for. And said, OK, you got to play this song or this, you know, and the whole night he did not play a single song that I requested. And so I was so mad.

Magda: Holy crap. Yeah. And so one of my friends from high school is a wedding DJ in the Atlanta area. And that's his whole thing is like his whole pre-prep is like, What songs do they want? What songs do they absolutely not want? And if you don't want it, there is no chance he's going to play it. That seems so strange to me that the DJ wouldn't play the songs that were requested by the person who was paying!

Carlotta: And I don't know if it was, there wasn't a lot of family. There was a lot of, you know, my daughters and her husband's friends. Anyway, so the whole time I was driving across Texas and across Texas and across Texas because it takes forever to get out of Texas when you're driving to Colorado. And that just got me thinking about the playlist. And so I was telling Siri to send myself notes on what was going to be on my playlist for our wedding. That DJ is going to play every single song.

Doug: If you invite me to your wedding, I will see it to it that my job is to hover over the DJ like the Wedding Guest of Damocles to make sure he plays what he's supposed to. Yes, yes. It's like thinking about a wedding. Just a bunch of party guests and one of them happens to be an officiant who puts on some kind of a sash and says, do you, do you, the end, let's go dance.

Carlotta: Exactly. That's kind of what I want it to be. And Donald, what he wants it to be.

Doug: He wants what you want. I mean, let's be clear.

Carlotta: Well, I want to marry him.

Magda: I got married a year ago at the age of 50. And there was a lot of that thinking about like, what do we really want? What do we not want? And a lot of what we ended up with was sort of limited by our venue.

Carlotta: Right.

Magda: And like, that's something to think about is that you kind of have to choose the venue and then that dictates some of what you'll be able to do.

Doug: And as Magda will tell you, I have some experience as a wedding DJ.

Magda: Yes, because he DJed the wedding. We made playlists of the music, but he had to cue.

Doug: That's all I did. I pushed six buttons over the course of the entire. Yeah, that's all it was. Do you want to do it in Texas or do you want to have a destination?

Carlotta: Oh, we're going to do it here. Actually, what's interesting is my older daughter, what her husband's job is, is kind of managing this ranch that's west of Austin that is a wedding venue. So I'm trying to work a deal where I do their social media and marketing for a couple months in exchange for letting us use the wedding venue. So we'll see if that happens. And we're also talking about doing a choreographed dance.

Magda: Oh, that's fun.

Carlotta: But it's like two different songs, and one of them is a Billie Eilish song, because I absolutely adore her. It's just going to be, like you said, Magda, it's like what we want it to be.

Doug: Well, and you've also clearly adopted your musical tastes for people who are younger than some parts of your wardrobe.

Carlotta: Right. Well, you know, this is funny because one of the things I was thinking about, too, especially this weekend, because I went, there's this thing called the Austin City Limits Music Festival, which happens in the fall each year here in Austin, and it's two weekends, and it was 101 degrees. Ugh. On October, what, 13th? And I ended up sitting next to these two women who were of a certain age, like myself. They were from Houston. I asked them if I could sit next to them. Oh, yeah, sure. And we started talking. And I was like, you know, I'm going to see Billie Eilish in Denver in November. And I, I was like, how are they going to react to that? And they're like, oh, you're going to see Billie? That's awesome. Because I feel like I'm this age. I love Billie Eilish. I've been a fan for years. She's just so incredibly talented. She and her brother. And yet it's like, is it appropriate for a 59-year-old woman to go see?

Doug: Oh, to hell with that.

Carlotta: I know, but I find myself wondering about this. And you know, I'm taking my daughter. I got great seats for the first night. And I was like, what the heck? I'm just going to get the second night as well. And I got great seats that night. So I was telling Donald, so I actually got tickets for both nights. And I'm going to take Ella one night. And he's like, well, who are you going to take the second night? And I was like... um, you, I guess. And I had no idea that he wanted to go see it.

Doug: This is the communication you're building! That's wonderful.

Carlotta: Yes, he's been becoming a fan of her music. I actually went over to his house the other day and he had her latest album on, was streaming it, and I was like, “Oh my God, this is true love.”

Doug: True love, and what are the odds that both your parents will be able to attend your wedding?

Carlotta: My dad would, knock on wood, should be able to. My mom is taking care of her husband who's 89. She's also 84, same age as my dad, and he's on the decline. Not doing well, in and out of hospital. She came out for my daughter's wedding last year and had a stroke before she went back, like she stayed an extra couple days and had a minor stroke. So that was, yeah, It was quite an ordeal.

Doug: Isn't that just like your mom, just trying to make it all about her?

Carlotta: Well, Doug, you have no idea. But my dad is funny because when my dad, he flew overnight from Germany and was kind of a little discombobulated. And then they were, both my mom and my dad were staying in my house until the wedding. And we went to dinner or something, and he kind of like, I don't know, like at the end of the day he was kind of forgetful and jet lag and everything, and she said something snarky to him and after she got out of the car and came into the house and I was helping him get out of the car he's like, “Who was that woman?” and he didn't remember it was my mom.

Doug: Wow.

Carlotta: He’d been married to her, so that was fun.

Magda: Okay, but come on, that's kind of every divorced person's dream, isn't it?

Doug: Oh yeah, right. Yes, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Carlotta: He really accidentally eternal sunshined himself.

Doug: So you think your mom is a 50/50 you know because she's got so much going on back in Virginia she might not make it to Texas.

Carlotta: Both she and my dad are like, oh, we'll be fine. And she comes from this hardy Polish stock. You know, her mom lived till she was like 90 and her grandmother lived till she was 96 and was gardening in the yard, you know, up to the moment she passed. So who knows?

Doug: I could go for a bowl of hardy Polish stock right now.

Carlotta: Yeah.

Doug: It may be 101 degrees in Austin, but it was 36 last night here.

Carlotta: Oh, I'm envious. I'm envious.

Magda: 36?

Doug: Yeah. Wow.

Magda: Wow.

Doug: There's frost warnings all this week.

Carlotta: Wow. Send it our way, please.

Doug: We wanted to talk about your relationship with your folks and the challenges now. I mean, at least your dad has your sister in Colorado, such as that is. But now you've got your mom who, as I understand it, has pretty much associated her purpose in life to take care of her husband, which is fine. That's not going to last forever. And so have you talked about what happens in the next phase of your mom's life?

Carlotta: So again, it's like all families were dysfunctional in our own unique ways. And so my mom and sister are estranged.

Doug: They don't talk at all.

Carlotta: No. And I communicate with my mom.

Doug: Are you the switchboard now? Or is it like “tell your sister that I said this” and “tell your mother she said that”?

Carlotta: Yeah, but not even that. And I was like, well, what's your plan? And she's like, I'll be fine. I was like, no, you gotta, we gotta figure something out before, you know, it's too late. And, again, it's kind of like that. We also had a difficult relationship to continue. And so it's like, how do I manage that? That is tough coming up with that balance between what do I owe the parents, especially if it's not a good relationship or it wasn't a good relationship, you know, and trying to reconcile that forgiveness and understanding and understanding. Sympathy and moving on, letting go.

Carlotta: With my dad, it's been, he's recognized, I think, his shortcomings and has apologized. And so there's been that kind of reconciliation and moving on, moving forward and making the best of it. Not so with my mom. And she doesn't have that self-awareness. And so it's kind of like we just try to keep the peace. And if she needs help, I think I'll be the one who's going to have to go deal with it because my sister is resolutely not there. I just hope that I'm in some way modeling some good behavior for my two daughters.

Doug: Do you feel like you're kind of trying to break a cycle in a way? And Magda and I can relate to this just because you're trying to co-parent. You've been co-parenting almost as long or about the same time as we have, I think. How old were your daughters when you split up?

Carlotta: They were like seven and nine. Yeah.

Doug: And ours were a little younger than that. But still, we've had more co-parenting experience than same household parenting experience. And so when you come from whatever dysfunction your own family suffered from, and now your own marriage breaks up and you're still trying to break that cycle and be friendly and work out some way of recognizing that no matter what your family, how did that affect the way you tried to parent your girls, especially after you got divorced?

Carlotta: Yeah. It was like, just do the opposite of whatever my parents would do.

Doug: Just write it out and just find the antonym for everything and then do that.

Carlotta: I'm joking, but not entirely, you know.

Doug: Well, jokes, as they say, are based on a modicum of truth.

Carlotta: Exactly. But I feel like just like how their dad and I have modeled good behavior. And I've really tried to be inclusive. Like we had a very modern family Christmas dinner this past year where my daughter from Colorado was in town. My daughter and her husband who are here came and my fiance's son and his wife who are here in Austin and my ex and his girlfriend. We all came for dinner at my house and had dinner and then board games. And it was great. We're a family. We're a weird family with different members who aren't necessarily related by blood but it's all good and we all get along, and at least for the, you know, three hours that we're together. So yeah I think I am trying to do it differently. You know my mom is always like, it's like they're 12-year-olds in the room when they see each other, my parents.

Magda: That's just stressful.

Carlotta: Yeah, it just doesn't...

Magda: Because then it makes you either have to be the parent of your own parents or it makes you kind of feel back like when you were a child again and you had no control over all of this stress and turmoil.

Carlotta: Right.

Magda: Yeah. There's no good way for you to feel.

Carlotta: Right. You know, with my daughter's wedding, there was the blended family for all the portraits and everything, which was really fun and wonderful. And so yeah, like you said, Doug, I think just break the cycle and just kind of try and be as happy as we can for whatever time we have left because life is too damn short.

Doug: Well, and yet you have people in your life who are acting like it's forever.

Carlotta: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Doug: Well, and I'm glad we touched on that. And Magda makes a good point about that, about there's no good way to feel. I get this impression as you speak about all these different personalities in your life. Do you feel a lot like the cartilage and the kneecap? Just the way of having to make sure everybody else gets along?

Carlotta: Yeah, in some ways. And just being a lot of times I am the initiator of these, you know, social gatherings. And even though we're separated and divorced, I want my, you know, my daughters to feel like they had a family. And even if it's not a traditional intact family, but I think that's even more common now. I also think about like, I don't know, I'm getting to the age where you think about your legacy. I don't know, do you guys like actively think about what you can leave behind, what you'll be known for, what people will remember about you.

Magda: I do think about it.

Doug: Yeah?

Magda: I think about it. And then it makes me think like, wow, I have just not done enough.

Carlotta: It's one of those things like those conversations in movies where someone talks to their older self or their younger self and talks about what their dreams were versus what their life turned out to be and their neurosis about what your teenage version of you would think of you. Right. Life is too short.

Doug: I really don't give a shit. I just want to be the best person I can be. I want to show love. I want to show respect. I want to show empathy and I'm content to do all that I'm capable of doing. And I may have been driven harder by that earlier in my life, but not so much now. Now I can just show up for people and hopefully be remembered as someone who did that. That's plenty for me. I mean, I'd love to have a building named after me, but you know, maybe my kids will build a shed.

Carlotta: Yeah. One of the things actually that I was thinking about, you know, when I was leaving my job is I worked at this position. for an arts institution. And the person who ran it was this place that she built basically, and is I think very much her legacy. I don't want a building named after me, but I felt like I was helping build someone else's legacy and not satisfying my own creative projects and pursuits and things that I was passionate about. And so I want to pursue some of those things before it's too late. And that could be part of my legacy. Because I want to be known for being a good person and for having raised my children well and being a good friend. And there's also that need to, that creative urge to leave something behind that I've created.

Doug: And that strikes me as healthy because as we've talked about, if you feel put upon or at least otherwise committed to making sure everybody else in this wacky extended family is happy and willing to convene and you're about to throw this party for hopefully everyone next year. it's healthy to say like, but I also am not losing sight of myself. I'm not losing sight of what makes me happy. I'm not losing sight of what I'd like to achieve. And I think that's as useful a legacy as anything because your daughters know that you pursued happiness. You pursued joy. You went out and found another man to fall in love with. You made a decision at 59 to leave a job and you know, it's not like Cortez burning the boats, but it can feel that way sometimes. Just the idea of how I'm taking a leap. You don't really realize it as much because you're in it, but I think people are understanding that about you, that you're taking this leap and doing things that, that serve as a good example.

Carlotta: Oh, thanks. I mean, I realize I'm very, very lucky and, um, and I've also worked hard to sock that money away that gives me that cushion. And I hope that if, you know, if something happens and I need to go back to work, I'm able to do that. I do hear from some of my, like my book club, female friends, a lot of them are in creative industries in advertising, film production, that sort of thing. And very accomplished women, some who have applied for jobs recently because they moved or something like that, and like to hear that they were passed up and the job did end up going to someone much younger. You know, I read about it, I hear about it, and it just still boggles my mind. But it's a reality.

Doug: Well, isn't that kind of a truth now at our age? You really can't count on someone seeing the value of an older person in their workforce. And you basically have to get by on creating something and doing what you love. And as I've said, you know, conning somebody into paying you for it, you know.

Carlotta: I just was thinking 50s pushing 60 was not that old.

Doug: Well, it was old when we were 30.

Carlotta: I guess. Yeah, I guess. Like 60 is the new what? I don't know.

Doug: 40?

Carlotta: I don't know.

Doug: The new sexy.

Magda: Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, when we were talking about treatments for perimenopause and menopause.

Doug: Okay. We've broken the seal on that. I'm going to go take out the garbage.

Magda: With Dr. Lewis Boardman. One of the things we were talking about was the fact that so much money was lost in revenue for companies because of women having these physical symptoms that workplaces did not think to accommodate. Right. And I think that's the beginning of it. Like when women start having physical issues during perimenopause, that's the beginning of when we're seen as being unreliable, all the same shit. Right. It's like, you turn 42 or whatever, and suddenly you're living inside The Yellow Wallpaper. And it's a problem because then like, what are you going to do? You're going to interview for a job and be like, oh, I'm through menopause. I'm reliable now, right? But hey, let's back up even further because when you're 25 and you're perky and you've got however many degrees and all this kind of stuff, you come in and they're looking at you as a liability because they know you're going to go out on maternity leave for a while, right? Like women are just fucked. No matter what. And I think it's just a different format of being fucked, whatever age you are in the workforce.

Carlotta: Yeah, totally agree. I guess I was kind of in denial about it. And it's like, not me, not my friends. We're solid. We're accomplished. We've done stuff. We've got, you know, proof. And yet to hear them, it's just like, oh, shit. So that was like another big consideration when I was like, okay, I'm getting rid of this income stream. Doug, you had said, you talked about your responsibilities. And for some reason, along with that guilt and anxiety, it's like, I feel slightly irresponsible.

Doug: Well, isn't this the time of life to be irresponsible in a way, or at least to kind of take flyers on yourself? Because if you feel as though you've been everything to other people for so long.

Carlotta: I have been so responsible. And so now it's like, yeah, now's my chance to take that leap. Even though it's not really irresponsible. It's not like I'm jumping off the work train with $10 in my savings account.

Doug: Well, you've already endured hot flashes in an area where it's 101 degrees in October. I'm not even sure how anybody endures that.

Carlotta: Yeah. Our AC bill is very, very high.

Doug: And you've got that very fragile Texas grid to rely on, man. Good Lord.

Carlotta: Yeah. Don't get me started on that. But, yeah.

Doug: Hey, well, it's 32 years. You've definitely acclimated, literally. So at least, you know, that's something.

Carlotta: So talking about earlier, we're talking about my mom in Virginia and what my obligation is and taking care of her. And one of the things that's interesting about her is she's bordering, if not fully, a hoarder.

Doug: Oh, that should be fun. And there was just an article in New York Times, I think, about like baby boomers and their stuff, you know, that their kids are going to have to take care of.

Carlotta: Yeah.

Doug: Well, when you say hoarder, I mean, hoarder has a wide spectrum of interpretation. I mean, has she really got, like, stuff piled everywhere and a path through it on the way to one place to another?

Carlotta: Yes, it is a fire hazard, and she's got, like, eight old sewing machines and boxes of Barbie dolls and boxes of papers, and I've asked her about it.

Magda: Does she have hats?

Carlotta: She has hats.

Magda: Because my mom has hats and hat boxes, like dozens and dozens and dozens of church lady hats.

Carlotta: Oh, no. Surprisingly, I don't think she does, but she's got like baby dolls and stuff. And she goes to yard sales and buys more stuff. And I don't, you know, I'm wondering, she was born in 1940. So I'm thinking it might be, you know, from that depression era, you know, war era, that scarcity.

Magda: I think the parents of people who were born in the mid 40s, felt like they had barely come out of the depression alive. And so I think they were just in such a habit that it was like their children couldn't waste anything or else they would have gotten in massive, massive trouble. So that just became their instinct.

Carlotta: Yeah, my grandparents came over from Poland.

Doug: Well, Poland hasn't got much of a history with oppression or anything. No, no, no.

Carlotta: And my mom, they grew up in Pennsylvania in Wilkes Barrett. My mom would tell us about how they would go along. It's a big coal area. And they would go along the railroad tracks where the trains went with the coal and pick up the coal that had fallen off the train cars and take that home.

Doug: That's got to leave a mark.

Carlotta: Yeah, for sure.

Doug: On your psyche.

Carlotta: And my grandmother would recycle the bread bags and reuse them back before, I guess, the Ziploc had been invented.

Doug: Who knows why we acquire stuff. But this is also the point where we could mention the art of Swedish Death Cleaning. That show on Peacock that's all about helping people come to terms with why they hang on to what they hang on to.

Carlotta: I haven't watched it yet. I need to do that. I have a lot of paper stuff because I have magazines and it's really hard for me. It's like I need to read it before I let it go. I need to. And I brought a whole stack of magazines with me on my road trip that didn't, I didn't get through any of them.

Doug: Can I tell you? I just, I had a stack of New Yorkers.

Carlotta: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Magda: New Yorkers.

Doug: Yeah. New Yorkers are famously, you know, they come once a week and they're very dense and they're very large and no one who has any other sense of a life could possibly get through them. I mean, anyone who orders the analog version of New Yorker has got a stack somewhere. And two months ago, during my grief cleaning, when my son left the house, I walked out to the recycling bin and dumped them all. And it was just the heavens opened. Yeah, it was a moment.

Magda: Because I think, you know, there are these archetypes of like fantasy New Yorker, right? And one archetype is the New Yorker who subscribes to the New Yorker and actually reads it every week.

Doug: Yeah.

Magda: Like that you would sit down and your brain could work like that for long enough for an entire issue of the New Yorker. Maybe you had a long subway commute. You could read them on the subway. You know, but like that's a type that I think some people aspired to.

Carlotta: But would they even have time to go do any of the things that are going on about town? You know, because you're reading all week.

Doug: Between that and The Economist. Yeah, each of them is like an encyclopedia in an issue.

Magda: When we were first dating, you used to get The Economist and you used to try to read it every week.

Doug: I did, and I read a lot of it, and I felt really 4% smarter every time I read something.

Magda: I've never cared for The Economist, but yeah. It's just interesting to me that there is this real sort of aspiration to read these magazines that were kind of iconic for a long time, and I guess... We're getting that stuff in dribs and drabs online, like, you know, an article a day instead of the whole magazine every week.

Carlotta: Although you can get Libby, that app that my library does. And so you can read the New Yorker on that.

Doug: And the Kindle had that too for a while. But the real part of that, though, is having a discussion with yourself. And some of our parents are not in a position to have that discussion about Why am I hanging on to this? You know, why is this important in my life to have? I mean, do you think you can even have that discussion with your mom about why she has all the stuff she has? Because this is going to fall to you when the time comes.

Carlotta: Yeah.

Doug: Or do you just like take it down the... kick it down the road and just figure I'll just cope with it when I cope with it.

Carlotta: Just hire a company. I think like i'm hoping this purge that I'm gonna go through in preparation for you know Donald to move in will help.

Doug: It feels great. I did that when both my sons moved out and it's just, I feel lighter than air truthfully. I just, I don't have anything and it feels great.

Carlotta: That's true. That's the other thing. It's like my house, I held on to this house. I'm glad I did because now there's room for him to move in and we'll each have our own spaces, which is another thing. I've been single and living on my own except for my daughters for a while. And so that's like having somebody in my space.

Doug: See, that's a discussion too. And you guys are coming at this from different directions because Carlotta your husband's moving into your place and Magda has moved into her husband's space.

Magda: And it's horrible. It's absolutely awful. I cannot recommend it.

Carlotta: What we're trying to do is going to clean it out and do some renovation and fully wipe it clean. But at least because I do want it to feel like our place and not him moving into it. We're hoping to do that because I totally get what you're saying. I don't want him to feel.

Magda: And this wasn't your house with your first husband, was it?

Carlotta: It was briefly. But it was many, many years ago, and there's new furniture and everything.

Doug: He has been completely exercised, I think, over the years. Lots of sage burning.

Carlotta: Yeah. So, yeah, that's going to be weird. Because it's okay to go on vacation or spend a week over at their house or him here, but that's forever. It's been a while.

Doug: How do you see your life evolving in terms of self-discipline? Because as you say, you've been working, you know, for 40-some years. And now your time is kind of your own to the point where you can decide how much time to write whatever else that you want to pursue in life. That's on you now. I mean, and I know in my situation, I have to impose some structure on my life. Otherwise, I'm helpless.

Carlotta: Yeah.

Doug: So not only will you have this new drive, as you say, to create something to leave behind in your life, plus you're going to have a husband underfoot. I keep thinking of that great line from Carol Burnett who said, “If I ever marry again, he's going to have to move in next door.”

Carlotta: Yeah.

Doug: Because there's that force field we get used to after a time. So how do you see your day-to-day life changing in this teardown? Because not only do you not have someplace to go every day, but you also have someone new and dear in your life that you're going to have to embrace at some points and send off at other points.

Carlotta: Right. There's a library not far from me that I really like. It's got great light and space. And I was saying, I think I would like to, you know, make it a routine to go there and do some writing in the morning. I'm going to have to schedule it. Otherwise, I'll just be sitting doing New York Times games all day. I'm going to have to be rigorous and set up a routine that I get used to.

Doug: Any thoughts about how you might do that? Are you just going to kind of see what works or create some kind of an actual schedule and hold yourself to it, that kind of thing?

Carlotta: I think I'm probably going to create a schedule. Like this week I'm using as my transition week. I'm going to be diving into cleaning out the attic, which I couldn't do. We're getting our cold front on Wednesday, and it's going to get down to 85. And so I'll be able to go up into the attic because it won't be a death sauna up there.

Doug: Oh, my God. Attics in Austin in the summertime. My God, you must be baking brownies up there.

Carlotta: He's been so kind and generous. And he's like, well, you got to make sure that you have, you know, like your time set for swimming each day, you know, and because I love to swim. It's the only thing you can do that really again in Austin when it's this hot. But make sure you're doing that self-care. And I was like, Oh yeah, thanks. Thanks for saying that. Um, because that's, that's important too, because you know, got to exercise, got to keep that, that health up. So we're not those people who are talking about their health all the time. I remember, you know, like being dragged to see my elderly aunts and grandparents and stuff when I was little, and they'd just be talking about. their rheumatism and their, you know, whatever. And I was like, when I was at the ACL Fest on Friday, I was talking to my friend and we were talking about our sciatica.

Magda: Well, just the fact that it was called the ACL Fest.

Carlotta: Oh, I know. Oh yeah.

Doug: The inflamed trapezius concerts. Yeah.

Carlotta: I'm going to need hearing aids because I've been to way too many concerts in my youth. And that's the one thing, like my dad has perfect hearing. His eyesight's not great. I'm inching up on needing hearing aids.

Doug: Which would you rather have a parent with perfect eyesight, but bad hearing or a parent with perfect hearing and bad eyesight?

Carlotta: I think hearing. And I hear that people like who do have hearing loss, like feel more isolated. And because even if you're, eyesight isn't great, you know, and you're in a room, if you can hear what's going on, like, I think that that's a better thing.

Magda: I mean, I also think it's easier to correct vision in a lot of directions. Like you can correct acuity and you know, if it's a cataract, eventually that gets removed even with macular degeneration. There's still some stuff that you can do a little bit for it, but yeah. Yeah.

Carlotta: So this is something that came up when I was with my dad. You know, they've got all the, is it OXO is the company that makes the really easy, super expensive kitchen appliances and things like that, which is great. And my dad's got some of those, but the type on packaging and on menus and on every, I mean, I'm noticing it and it's criminal. And so I took him to the grocery store and got him some frozen meals and was showing him, okay, here's what you need to do. You need to read the directions and then put it in the microwave. And he's looking at the directions and even with his glasses, he's like, “I can't read this.” And it's like maybe five, seven point type or something. And isn't our population like generally aging more?

Magda: Yeah, but this is a time delineated problem because people our age just take a picture of it and then zoom it in so we can see it.

Carlotta: Right.

Magda: So people who are over 80 probably don't do that. But I'm guessing people up to the age of maybe 65 now, that's the first instinct. Just take a picture and zoom it in.

Carlotta: Right. Yeah. My dad's got a magnifying glass, a big thing. And so he was looking at the packaging with that. And he's like, but what if I misplace this? You know, and I don't have my so I feel like I need to buy him like five more magnified glasses scattered around.

Magda: The jeweler's loupe.

Carlotta: That really threw into stark relief like what is it going to be like for me, and then I started spiraling off into maybe there's some sort of company I could start that does you know senior friendly packaging. But I think you're right, Magda, I think that we'll have some sort of technological workaround but for him there isn't that because he's not good with the technology.

Magda: I think people are understanding the need for that, but there hasn't been a huge market solution for that kind of stuff yet. Like, I mean, the Jitterbug phone has been around for 15, 20 years, right? So somebody figured out that there needed to be a simple phone and there are those simplified remote controls and stuff like that. But I don't know if there's been anything made for packaging.

Doug: Well, the answer of course is to have the gizmo that my grandmother had because she loved cross stitch and knitting. And as she got older, she had one of those big magnifying glasses that you wore around your neck. It was about eight inches in diameter and you picked it up and you propped it on your chest and it sat out perpendicularly sitting on her chest and she would knit underneath it. Are you picturing what I'm laying down here?

Magda: Are you using the word “chest” euphemistically for bosoms?

Doug: I don't know where it actually sat on my grandmother's bosoms, Magda. That wasn't really part of the conversation. It sat somewhere on her upper torso. Her breasts may have been involved. I don't really necessarily think about my grandmother's breasts all that often, you perv.

Magda: The field of vision in that magnifying glass is radically different for someone with an A cup versus an E cup.

Doug: She made it work. I'm guessing as she aged, she could probably prop it up a little higher up on her sternum.

Carlotta: The outrage. The outrage, Doug, to talk about your grandmother's bustline.

Doug: You know what? I have to say, my grandmother's bustline was not on my bingo card. But that's testimony to where these conversations can go.

Carlotta: So, do y'all think of yourselves as old? Like, what do you think?

Doug: Oh, sure. Absolutely.

Carlotta: How about you? Do you? You're even way younger than us. You're only 51. 51?

Magda: I'm 51. Yeah.

Carlotta: You think of yourself as old?

Magda: No. I think of myself as middle-aged. 100% middle-aged.

Doug: What is old, then?

Magda: What did old used to feel like to me? I feel like 81 is old. Okay.

Doug: But if you're middle-aged, you're already planning to live to 102. Yeah.

Magda: Right. Well, and one of my grandmothers lived to 101, so it could happen.

Doug: Wow. You might bury us all.

Magda: And even the grandmother that was in very bad shape lived to 89. So I don't know.

Carlotta: Yeah.

Doug: We'll see. I don't think of myself as old until I walk past a mirror and I'm like, oh yeah, yes, sir. I look like my grandfather did. I'm lucky enough now I'm still, you know, taking these bike rides. They're like 20, 25 miles and I can survive them, but it takes me longer to recover from them. And I still have, I got arthritis and I got aches and pains and you know, you never know what type of sleep you're going to get. Magda was mentioning before about menopause, how she just doesn't feel good.

Carlotta: Yeah.

Doug: And I relate to that. I don't feel good either, but for different reasons. Yeah. Like right now I have a yard I still have to conquer and it's just me now. I used to have sons who would help me conquer the lawn. And now it's just me. And I'm like, oh, fuck.

Magda: Yeah. Okay. So last Thursday, I drove to pick our kid up at school. And it was five and a half hours one way by myself. And then he got in the car and he didn't want to drive on the way back. And we made the mistake of going through Connecticut, which, oh, God. Oh, God. And so it was like six hours back. And I just felt horrible during this entire drive. And I was attributing it to the fact that I got in the car with a cup of coffee and like a donut. And that was all I ate. And then we stopped at Wawa and I got a Wawa sub and Dr. Pepper. And that was all I ingested. And we were in the stop and go traffic and all this kind of crap. It was horrible. And then the next day I felt even worse. And I thought it was just recovery from that. And then on Saturday, finally, halfway through the day, I was like, oh, I think I'm sick. And it was such a relief. To realize that I was sick and that this wasn't just like my normal malaise and feeling horrible.

Carlotta: Have you read Outlive? No. By Peter Atiyah, I think is how you say his name.

Magda: Oh, okay. I enjoy Peter Attia. Is it about how to outlive your parents?

Carlotta: No, it's just about longevity.

Magda: Does it say don't eat Wawa subs and drink Dr. Pepper?

Carlotta: That might be in chapter eight, but I'm not sure. But it's more like preventative stuff. And it's just about how Western medicine really waits until it's, you know, it's reactive and not proactive. And, but it talks about the four horsemen, the diabetes, cancer, dementia, and heart disease, heart disease. Yeah. And just, but one of the things that was really interesting, we read it in my book club was they talk about the centenarian decathlon. He writes about like the things that you want to be able to do when you hit like 70 or something like that.

Carlotta: After we read the book, we had our meeting about it. The hostess passed around a paper and said, write down your 10 things that you want to be able to do when you're older. And the things that I wrote were: be able to get down on my knees to garden, swim at least five times a week, stand in a museum for two hours without being tired. With my grandkids, if I have any, paint my toenails, which is already getting hard enough to do.

Doug: That's why you have a husband. Donald will take care of that.

Magda: It's the vision to the toe part that's difficult about it. It's not the bending down. I can still practically get my leg up against, you know. It's the vision to the toes.

Carlotta: Yeah, yeah. And then take a long flight and be comfortable because that's like getting uncomfortable.

Doug: Well, that's interesting. That's useful. The ideas of like what you'd like to be able to handle.

Carlotta: One of them was like being able to lift your carry-on baggage up into the overhead bin. And then I also just wrote, “remember things.”

Doug: Remember where you put this list. Yeah.

Carlotta: And Donald keeps telling me, if you're forgetting names and things like that, that's okay. It's when you look at a fork and you can't remember what it's used for. That's when you have to start worrying. I'm like, okay, okay, honey.