Episode 69: Transcript

"Navigating college when the fog gets thick" — with Kimberly Shepherd

Magda Pecsenye Zarin: So you're very cold, and I have a cat (in my face).

Doug French: Oh, wow. You came in with all the salient details right off the jump.

Magda: I know, I know.

Doug: So what’s up, Paprikash?

Magda: Well, so it's cold here. I was like, “oh, it's cold. It's like 17 degrees.” And then I'm on a group chat for the ladies in my Hungarian class, and the one who lives closest to me in Metro Detroit posted, it's five degrees here. Yeah.

Doug: Well, it's negative three here.

Magda: It's really cold, I guess.

Doug: So yes. So a man's got to do what a man's got to do to keep his fragile bald head warm.

Magda: I made a delightful un-borscht last night. I wanted to make borscht, but I didn't have regular beets. I only had pickled beets. And so I made a soup that kind of felt a little bit like borscht that I put chopped pickled beets on top of and sour cream. And it gave the idea of borscht without actually being borscht. So Mike said it was great. He was a big doubter.

Doug: But what was the soup itself?

Magda: Chicken stock, actually bone broth that Mike made.

Doug: Un-borscht.

Magda: Onion, cabbage, carrot, and cannellini beans and egg noodles.

Doug: Well, it's warm comfort food, so I'm all for it. I probably wouldn't touch that in particular.

Magda: Why not?

Doug: It strikes me as just a big bucket of hot vinegar, but it might be fine.

Magda: But it was a bucket of hot vinegar with sour cream on it. No, I mean, I think the key that makes borscht taste like borscht is A, the beets, but B, the actual vinegar that you put into it. Like if it doesn't have any vinegar in it, it really just tastes like vegetable soup. So I did put the vinegar in and it really had the feel of borscht, even though it was just the pickled beets on top.

Doug: Isn't that the dill, though? Isn't the dill make it?

Magda: I guess. You can make borscht without dill.

Doug: Right. And, you know, you can make fried chicken without batter.

Magda: Yeah, but I mean, most things are better with dill, right?

Doug: Well, most things are better with batter, too.

Magda: Well, yeah.

Doug: Batter fried beets. Wow. We are killing time already. Not getting anywhere and just...

Magda: Right. We've said nothing. So, okay.

Doug: If you're tuning out right now, you know what? Fine. Just fast forward about five or six minutes and we'll get to Kimberly Shepherd, who has a lot of really interesting things to say about what your kids are going through trying to get into college.

Magda: Yeah. So we talked to Kimberly Shepherd today and she is a navigator for teens in high school and in college and out of college. And so she does a lot of work with teens who don't want to go to college but the parents want them to go to college. She helps figure out like, is there some other path the kids could take? Is there a college they'd be happy going to? That kind of stuff. She works with a lot of neurodiverse kids, but she also works with kids who are in college and maybe are enjoying college, but don't have any idea what they want to do after. And I think that's the part of her work that's interesting to me, because, you know, you and I are seeing it like a lot of people think that getting your kids into college is like the end.

Magda: “Oh, no, they're going to go off to college and everything's going to be great. Everything's going to be perfect. If it's not perfect, you need to step in and call the administration and make it perfect for your kids.”

Doug: Right.

Magda: Instead of letting your kids have a little normal struggle.

Doug: Well, you want it to be because the job itself is so hard. It's so time consuming, all encompassing. You want to think you've crossed a finish line, but you haven't. I mean, you've reached a milestone, but it's like a foothill in the Appalachian Mountains.

Magda: I think what Kim is doing is really important. And, you know, I'm a big fan of having a job that doesn't really have a category, right? When I was being a problem solver and people are like, what do you do? Well, I solve problems, right? And Kim's kind of the same way. Like when people ask her what she does, she says she's a college admissions person, right? Because that's sort of the easy way to understand it. But she's so much more than that. She has a lot of clients that need direction and they really need an adult who believes in them, that doesn't have an agenda for what they do. And I think that's the role that she fills.

Doug: See, now I'm picturing you at the end of Pulp Fiction. You're Winston Wolfe. You're the guy who solves problems.

Magda: The fixer?

Doug: Yeah, you're the fixer in an evening gown at 6.30 in the morning.

[Theme music fades in, plays, fades out.]

[Editor’s note: Just assume that all three of us laughed through this entire interview.]

Doug: You were saying how amazing it was that you were able to get your name as a URL, given how common it is. Yes.

Kimberly Shepherd: Kimberly Shepherd is a very common name, at least in the United States.

Doug: Well, we almost named both our sons Kimberly Shepherd, so I get it.

Kimberly: Yeah, so they lucked out.

Magda: So you got a court summons for someone else named Kimberly Shepherd.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm. My company, which is KSA Educational Consulting, was being sued for this employee of theirs, Kimberly Shepherd.

Magda: Wow.

Kimberly: And I was like, “no, nope, nope.”

Doug: Well, at least we've established that your company is criminally suspect. So welcome to the show.

Kimberly: Right. I'm sure that'll be very reassuring to all the parents.

Magda: Right, well, if it's KSA, it would be Kriminally (with a K) Suspect Associates.

Doug: Like Kars 4 Kids.

Magda: It's usually Doug who comes up with the word games like that.

Doug: I'm rubbing off slowly but surely, 30 years in.

Kimberly: Yeah, I had to go to the courthouse. And of course, you know, this was the beginning of the pandemic when we thought plexiglass stopped viruses. Oh, right. It was very cool. So there were just these sheets of plexiglass in front of all the workers. Nobody was masked because, you know, that wasn't really a thing. But the plexiglass, even at the time I was like, doesn't air like go up and over the plexiglass? I was like, right.

Doug: It was just a sneeze guard. Yeah. Just at the salad bar of life. That's all you need.

Kimberly: Just, just, just, right. So I'm like sliding, like, you know, all this paperwork under this little thing. The woman's like, “Yeah. Okay. It's not you.” And I was like, can you record that officially, please?

Magda: That's amazing.

Kimberly: Yeah. And I didn't open it for like, I don't know, three days because I'm neurodivergent. And sometimes if you just avoid things, they'll go away.

Magda: Yeah, exactly.

Kimberly: That never happens in real life. But, you know, and I mean, you know, neurodivergence is not a one size fits all. And certainly that is not. I mean, there are a million ways to be neurodivergent and avoiding things is not a characteristic of all of them by any means. But it is certainly my neuro spicy flavor.

Magda: I think it's a specific trait of a specific kind of ADHD comma inattentive type. because I also have that issue. I have a, just a chair that has a stack of unopened mail on it.

Kimberly: I mean, when I was diagnosed with OCD and ADHD at the same time, and I was almost 30, the psychiatrist said, you know, the theory probably is that you developed OCD as a response to your undiagnosed ADHD, because, you know, your childhood brain was kind of chaotic. And if you ordered things physically, it didn't change what was happening in your brain, but it could feel as though things were a little more settled. And I was like, yeah. But I, you know, like as a kid, things had to line up a certain way on my shelves. Pillows had to be on the bed a certain way. The chair had to be pulled out a certain way from the desk. I was never compulsive in the sense of like the washing of the hands and feeling dirty and things being dirty. None of that. But order and place and things being just so was, yeah, from my earliest memories.

Magda: I get that.

Doug: So how does this awareness of how your brain works help you relate to the people you work with? Because that's an important rapport to establish initially, right? The idea of I know where you're coming from and this is how I cope with my own frailties and here's what might work for you. Is that fair to say?

Kimberly: It is. And I think it helps parents understand that, you know, that if their 16 year old never turns anything in and they don't know why and why this doesn't make sense. They do the work, but they don't turn it in and, you know, help me understand this. And I'm like, okay, you know, nobody's trying to fail here. Nobody's trying to upset you. Like this is just their brain and how it works. And here's what we're going to do. Some scaffolding we can put in place, we can work on together. So it's even from a, you know, talking to another parent and saying, you know, I know this is frustrating. But they're not doing this to you. Because that's sometimes how it feels. Like, you know, why won't they just listen?

Doug: So I guess the next question is, when you diagnose this in a young adult, I know too many people think I can, quote, cure this person. But I'm sensing instead it's more about, no, you're not curing. You're actually adapting, coping, trying to help someone with this particular mindset move about in the world as best he or she can.

9:53

Kimberly: Yeah. To be fair, I do not diagnose at all. I'm not a clinician. I was a therapist many moons ago, but I left that field and went into higher ed.

10:02

Magda: Tell us exactly what it is that you do in your own language.

10:06

Kimberly: Sure. So I coach. I coach teens and young adults and parents on their next steps. My hashtag on my various social media is #NavigatorKimberly. “So I'm here I'm a junior in high school and I don't want to go to college. My parents want to make me.” And I'm like, okay, okay, everybody, deep breath. Then I talk to the kids. So you don't want to go wide. You hate school as it is. You don't see a future. You cannot imagine sitting in a classroom for four more years. You know, whatever the case may be. And we talk through all those pieces and parts. A, to understand what the real issue is. And B, to then say, okay, so... Maybe college isn't for you. What do you think is for you? Let's talk about that. Let's figure that out. And so there's a piece of career coaching that I do. There is definitely executive function coaching, which is kind of what I was talking about with the scaffolding, accommodations for things like ADHD, anxiety, depression, autism, all kinds of things. And sometimes it's me saying, you know, this isn't making sense because they're doing all the things and it's not that they're partying all the time and it's not that they're skipping class because I know them. So something else is at play.

Kimberly: I had a client a couple of years ago. I worked with him for almost two years. He was an engineering student at an excellent school and was failing. And he was working hard and doing all the things, but he had a third grade reading comprehension level.

Magda: Oh, wow. And had he known about that before?

Kimberly: Absolutely not. He's been an A student.

Magda: Wow. He had other compensation methods, right? Like he was really good at remembering what the teacher said in the class. He would have somebody read the stuff to him, that kind of stuff.

Kimberly: All kinds of things.

Doug: That's some pretty high-functioning illiteracy, frankly.

Kimberly: Yeah. And I think that the piece sometimes that a lot of times parents and, of course, my clients themselves struggle with is that they know they're intelligent, but they're struggling. And why? It makes no sense. And understanding that intelligence and having any type of learning disability are utterly unrelated. You can be a literal genius and have a learning disability. And that's a hard thing to understand. And our educational system, our American educational system, doesn't account for that.

Doug: Well, thank goodness we're getting rid of the Department of Education then because...

Kimberly: Oh, right. I know. Everything will be better.

Magda: Well, schools don't even really understand what it is that they're actually asking for, right? They want kids to be smart, but what they really mean is they want kids to be achievers. And people don't really understand that until they have a kid who's really brilliant, or unless they were that kid who was really brilliant, but just can't seem to achieve. You know, that idea of one response to that was developing symptoms of OCD. I think that's really common. I got diagnosed with ADHD, Inattentive type when I was 49. And it took a while to get diagnosed. I figured out that I had it when our younger one was going through testing for ADHD. And his teachers were not understanding why he had done the homework and it was in his backpack in the classroom and he just couldn't bring himself to get it out and put it in the thing, like he was just terrified to turn it in. And at one point I just said to him, “Well, why don't you just do everything perfectly? And then you don't have to be anxious.” And I was like, Oh, bing bing bing bing bing! Wait a minute. I had anxiety and didn't realize it. And I have ADHD, too. And it's just that I had a different coping mechanism than he did. His coping mechanism was to act like he didn't care. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for a lot of kids, if they're coping and then suddenly they're not, that's when it finally gets diagnosed.

Kimberly: Yeah, 100%. And I often talk about the fact that because people are like, oh, did you just get ADHD like when you were in your 20s? I'm like, no. I counted ceiling tiles in the first grade because I wanted to be liked by my teacher. And I understood that she did not like the kids that were running around in the class and moving and making all kinds of noise. I wanted to be liked. So I was like, okay, I need to stay still. How can I make myself stay still? And I would count. I would just count down and cross and I would multiply and add, you know, just anything I could do to occupy my brain so that I wouldn't feel this need to move. Now, if you don't so much care, then what is going to compel you to go through all of that? Nothing.

Doug: It resonates the whole idea of how when your coping mechanisms start to run out of juice, which is right about the age when kids start coming to you, right? Because their studies attain that level of difficulty that they can't just kind of fake through anymore. There's some real challenge there. You know, they say textbook parenting advice is to never tell a kid that they're smart, just because that really elevates a level of imposter syndrome if they don't believe it. And they feel compelled to do whatever they can to live up to the standard that they're hearing all the time, but might not necessarily believe in. Among the kids you've worked with, do you find that imposter syndrome is growing a bit just because we have so much more comparison, so much more judgment, and there's a fear of being judged, something about if I hand in my paper, they're going to come back and tell me I'm not perfect. How do you find that pattern trending, if at all?

Kimberly: I do think that it's more. I mean, this is my 14th year in practice, and I do see it more. I feel like the clients I worked with earlier on were more self-assured, to be honest, by and large. I don't know if it's happening in school or if it's happening at home or if it's, you know, I hate to blame social media because I'm generally actually a fan, but I do think there's so much more comparison now.” I'm not an influencer earning $5 million at age 15, so therefore I'm nothing.”

Doug: Well, dare to dream, Kimberly. You may yet get to that pinnacle of success in the 21st century. And you'll partner with BetterHelp. [Magda and Kimberly laugh]

Magda: BetterHelp is our joke of who we would not want as a sponsor. It's just so funny because I was watching the Doechii Tiny Desk concert again after having watched it how many times and noticed that BetterHelp is a sponsor. I was like, oh, BetterHelp. Okay.

Kimberly: When I first heard the ad or whatever, I was like, oh, and I have several friends that are therapists. And I was like, oh, so like, this seems like, and they were like, oh, no, no, Kimberly. No, no. It's like, oh, oh, good. Okay. Thanks for letting me know.

Doug: So when a parent comes to you, when you begin a relationship with a new client, what kind of boilerplate diagnostics are in the back of your mind as you're kind of assessing a new person? As you mentioned, everyone's different. I mean, I'm sure there's a through line that you can get to initially, but…

Kimberly: I do individual consults with both parent and client. And then parent, you know, explains why they've, you know, sought me out and what's going on and the challenges they see and You know, sometimes people cry because, you know, they feel relief that maybe somebody gets them, hears them. Other times they're just all over the place. They're overwhelmed. And then, you know, I say, okay, well, this is how I work and this is what I charge and all those things. And however, going to need to meet with them and talk to them and also make sure that they're on board. Because as I tell parents all the time, it absolutely will not work if your child is like “hell no.”

Magda: Well, it seems like there's a lot of room for people to have different agendas and think that you're the person to implement their specific agenda, right? Like I bet you get a lot of parents who are like, “Can you force my kid to want to go to school?”

Kimberly: Oh, I get, you know, I want them to be an engineer or a doctor or whatever. And, you know, can you convince them? And yeah, fortunately, now in year 14, that's actually in my contract, that although parents are responsible, blah, blah, blah, blah, that the student is my client, and I will be working in their best interest and to support them.

Magda: You can't force anybody to feel anything they don't want to feel. I feel really bad for parents who think that going to college is the answer and the finish line because there's eight or more semesters that a kid has to get through and then even if they do graduate, like what happens if they don't see anything that they really want to do on the other side? Like this whole achievement chasing thing like you got to get the grades and do the all the activities so you can get into the best college possible so you can slog through four years so then you can go out and get a job that makes you feel like a veal in a pen. Like what? You know there's no reward for it.

Kimberly: No. And I honestly, what I have seen, I don't know where the end is in terms of the kind of uptick for this, but it just keeps ratcheting up higher and higher. And every year I say to, you know, parents come to me and say things like, well, they got into this school and it's going to cost us out of pocket, you know, 60K a year, you know, should we do it? And I'm like, no. Without being incredibly rude. I'm like, hell no. But you know, I go through all the very factual things because it's not my business to be emotional with people. And I try to give them the facts, like your child isn't going to be able to borrow this. You have to borrow it. So you really want to be going into this kind of debt?

Doug: Well, it's generational, though, right? I mean, there are people who are just brought up with the idea that college is the end all in terms of opening up avenues to what you want to achieve. And that's what we were all raised as.

Kimberly: I mean, I'm a first-generation college student, so my parents were like, “Oh, college, it's amazing!” And it was for me. I'd love to go back and get a PhD if I could, but it's not for everyone. And it is absolutely not the key to, as I tell people all the time, happiness, wealth, success, nothing. It is not a key. It is simply just a path. And there are a million paths and a big part of the work that I do is trying to get people to look at the paths. One of the things I talk to people about a lot is that, you know, we start asking kids in like preschool, what do you want to be when you grow up? I mean, everybody does it. And, you know, and we anticipate their responses, you know, veterinarians, always big because, you know, kids like animals, you know, firefighter, you know, whatever, all the things.

Doug: I'd like to be alive, please.

Kimberly: Yeah. And that morphs as they grow. But it's really a tiny little subset of careers that people are looking at and considering. And I'm like, folks, there are more ways to earn a living than any of us even know. There are millions and millions and millions. And, you know, one of the things that I do a lot with clients who are kind of exploring is informational interviews. And I say this all the time and people don't believe me. Every single time one of my clients has informational interviews, I learn about a career I never knew anything about before.

Kimberly: I had a client a couple of years ago who said that he was, it makes me laugh only because at the time I was like, are you kidding me? This is a thing? He wanted to be a biologist for fish hatcheries. I did not know that that was a career. Not only is it a career, I happened to be connected to three different people who knew people who were fish hatchery biologists and were happy to connect me and talk to my client. And I was like, this is wild.

Kimberly: I had a client a couple of years ago who was interested in marketing, or at least his parents were interested in him being in marketing.

Doug: Poor kid.

Kimberly: Yeah, right. And I connected him to two people who did marketing. One of them worked for NASCAR in marketing, and the other one worked for Disney in marketing, right? And then his other interest that he had was, interestingly enough, in being a therapist. And so I hooked him up with a couple of therapists to talk to. He was like, I feel so strongly now that I really want to go into a career where I can help people. And I was like, okay, well, be sure to tell your folks that I really tried.

Doug: Yeah, really. I mean, at what point do you call Child Protective Services and say, we have a child whose parents want them to go into marketing?

Magda: Right. I get it if parents are like, I really want you to go into the law or I really want you to be a doctor. That makes sense in my head as a thing that a parent would want for their kid, but for their kid to go into marketing seems like-

Kimberly: I think, I mean, to give context and to be fair, this was somebody already in college and he was in a business department and within the business majors, I think because of his personality, they felt like that would probably be the best fits.

Magda: Ohh. Okay.

Doug: All right. I mean, I guess this is a classic parent saying, you know, if you want to pursue something artistic or therapeutic or whatever, follow your dream, but have a backup.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Doug: Robin Williams says his father told him to like, sure, be an actor, but don't give up on welding.

Kimberly: Yeah. And I do get it, although I don't know on some level, but I don't because I'm like, how is that going to stick? Like, it's going to fall apart at some point.

Magda: You went above and beyond because I think, you know, like Disney is a marketing machine. If he didn't connect to marketing for Disney, he was not going to connect for marketing.

Kimberly: This was the other piece of it. Both of those people that were in marketing were young people. Like they were like late 20s, early 30s. So they were like very, you know, I thought relatable to this person who was currently in college, whereas the therapists were older. And I thought, you know, less relatability, possibly. I wasn't doing that on purpose. It just was how it worked out. So I was really banking that this was going to steer. No, it did not happen. I was like, well, best laid plans.

Doug: So do I understand correctly that in most situations, the parents are paying for the service to help their kids?

Kimberly: Yep, always.

Doug: So the next question, you probably know where I'm going with this, right? I mean, your progress will not seem as tangible as your clients might want it to be. So when you have conversations about how is my child doing or what growth have you seen or or they're impatient perhaps with progress that they perhaps don't recognize right away. What are those conversations like?

Kimberly: I mean, I'm trying to think, I'm not saying they've never happened. They don't happen all that often. Part of it I think is that when people find me, you know, I'm really careful in our initial conversation to really get into, this is how it works. This is how often we meet. These are the kinds of things that I will suggest Your child has to also be on board, hence the very important part of them being willing to partner with me. And I'm going to be here for them, though. They can text me. They can call me. They can, you know, we can Zoom. They don't have to be on camera. I, you know, I'm 100% flexible, but they have to be willing to show up, and try. That's it. I think in the cases of sometimes when I have parents who are just frustrated and want to see faster improvement, I try to work with them and say, okay, so what's really bugging you right now?

Doug: Ah, judo.

Kimberly: You know, I have a lot of clients who can't get up in the morning. And it's something that I can talk about very, very personally because my 19 year old, you know, sleep, one of the greatest challenges of her life. And we implemented so many things, but also I know other things. I mean, I never had my child sleep in her clothing, but it's a thing that can be done. Shower at night, put on clean clothing, go to bed. You are wearing your clothing. You're ready to go the next morning. And I mean, the first time anyone ever said that to me, which was, you know, probably 20 years ago, I was like, ew. I mean, you know, OCD, whatever, you know, ew. Yeah. I changed my tune. Absolutely.

Magda: It completely makes sense to me because my mom started my younger brother doing that when he was like four or five because he would wake up in the morning and just like want to run around outside and all that kind of stuff. And she was like, he can't be out there in his pajamas. So she just started dressing him in the next day's clothes when he went to bed and he could get up and go off.

Kimberly: I had a prospective client and all my clients, virtually all, in 14 years, almost all of them have been referrals.

Doug: Well, that's nice. Yeah, if you have a robust word of mouth, that's a great thing to have for sure.

Kimberly: Somebody that I went to college with undergrad referred me and I had a conversation with the parents and with the child. I determined that this was not a good fit for me. I could just tell. And what I said to all three of them, which was true, is that you don't need me. This child already went to an extremely prestigious private school that had their own college counseling department. They wanted me, you know, for the prestige and the, you know, whatever. And I was like, that's not really what I do. They did not take it well when I said that I did not think that I would be good. They called and emailed me for two straight days, nonstop, nearly.

Doug: Right, because that's a form of rejection in their minds. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Magda: And that made you really extra happy that you had decided not to work with them. Wow.

Doug: “Well, okay, I'll charge you double and…”

Kimberly: I referred them, you know, so I'm physically, I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, but I work with people all over the country. It's, you know, everything's virtual and was before COVID. So it, you know, was no big deal, but I was like, “Hey, there's actually someone I know in New York, like personally, and I love her and she's very good at this. She's written a book,” you know, here. And I thought, I thought that this would be a good substitute for, except I've never asked my friend what they charged. So I go on the website because my friend works for a firm. And I was like, oh, it was like more than three times what I was. So apparently that was probably also like, they didn't appreciate the reward.

Magda: If they were hiring you for the prestige, you would think they would want to pay more.

Kimberly: Right? I would have thought. So funny.

Magda: Wow.

Doug: So let's talk about, is there a success story that stands out in your mind? I mean, I'm sure it's all a hit or miss. Every client is an experiment, I think, in many ways, just to kind of find that rapport, pull the right levers and hope for the best in many cases. Although after 14 years, you do have a sense of which levers tend to work better. But is there one case study that you point to that if you have a bad day, you can think, well, this person worked out. I know I have the chops still. In terms of a template that you aspire to apply to anybody you work with.

Kimberly: Yeah, I think over time, I think like a lot of stories have kind of become almost one story. It's a lot about really listening to the client. I actually framed a quote from a client from a number of years ago. I think he had been, I want to say it was five colleges already that he'd been to.

And I'd worked with his older brother, you know, in high school to go to college. And I helped him figure out what he wanted to major in. And he did very well and, you know, was very happy today. And so his parents thought, oh, like, you know, let's try and see. And, you know, obviously completely different person, right? I mean, siblings almost always are. And he said that he felt hopeful for the first time in a long time, one time in a conversation.

Magda: Oh.

Kimberly: And I just felt like that was it like that. You know, I, if I can bring something to my clients, that's what I want to bring that there's possibility. That's kind of like my, my navigator idea. I actually had a cartoon made of me in Amelia Earhart goggles and the scarf and all, because I really like, I see that as the key thing. Like we're in the cockpit together. I think a lot of young people want to move forward. I don't believe in the word “lazy.” I think it's garbage. Nobody wants to be unproductive. No one wants to feel bad. No one wants to watch other people move forward in their lives and they're not moving forward. No one wants that.

Kimberly: If that's happening, it means something is going on. There's a block of some type and it could be psychological. It could be physical. It could be emotional. There's a million things it could be. And I am not the person necessarily to diagnose what that is. I'm going to help you find the resources to get that figured out. And then I'm going to be the person that says, okay, we have that knowledge on board now. We're going to take some next steps. Because unfortunately, I, you know, I wrote about this recently. I get a lot of, you know, kids will say things like, “oh, so you're just going to like put me on meds.” And I'll be like, no, I can't put you on meds, first of all, not even possible, but I am indifferent to whether you take meds. If that's something you and your parents decide is a good idea, then, you know, and your doctor. Great. I support that. You know, I've had kids say I took it and it made me feel terrible. Then let's not take it. Let's figure out what you can do to be happier, to be more successful in your own mind and in with your own goals. This like idea that other people out here are just breezing through life, that is not accurate at all. I had somebody say to me recently, you know, I'm scared to be an adult because adults don't have to depend on anyone. I was like, you're joking, right? I depend on a million people. Yeah. So there's nothing to be scared of. Right. You can still have all the supports. But there is this idea that kids get, that 18 or 21 or whatever, I'm on my own.

Magda: Well, I think a lot of those kids are kids who haven't necessarily felt like there was an adult that wasn't at least slightly adversarial to them. Like it feels like you fit a really good space in which the kid can trust you to do what's their agenda, not your agenda. And I don't think all kids have anyone else like that in their lives. Like if their parents fundamentally don't understand what's making them not be able to do what the parents think is best. And the other adults in their lives are teachers and coaches and people who want them to achieve to whatever their standard of achievement is. You may be the only adult they know that isn't adversarial.

Kimberly: It's very true. You know, I tell them all the time you can tell me anything. You don't have to, but you can, and I won't give up on you. I won’t quit. I mean I've had kids tell me some things where I had to be like go into major poker face where I was like, okay, wow, wasn't expecting that! I will not say on the podcast what one of those things was but something popped to mind because I was trying to help a student who was struggling with motivation, that's a huge piece. And I said, what is something that you enjoy doing? And that's distracting you from doing what you need to do? And they shared a thing that they were doing. And I was like, well, you know, that's a healthy, normal thing to do. However...

Magda: –but if you're in Catholic school, don't tell the priest.

Doug: Well, we've gone there. [Magda laughs] That's the beauty of... having these conversations, you just never know where they're going to go.

Kimberly: Listen, I wasn't expecting it either when they said it.

Magda: Yeah, but they were comfortable enough with you. Yeah. Yeah.

Kimberly: Yeah. And I mean, that's the thing. I have to be prepared, right, for that, for whatever. Fortunately, I was an inpatient therapist at an adolescent psychiatric hospital for five years. So I have the background to have heard a lot of things. I mean, it's tough to really blow me away and shock me.

Doug: Well, that's an important thing to add here as well, the nature of your training. So when you talk about the training you have and the job you had before this, what was that and how has that skill set benefited you in this new career?

Kimberly: So I spent my 20s working in social work and worked in domestic violence and crisis intervention and then inpatient psychiatry and substance abuse. And then I left all of that behind in my 30s and went back to the work that I had done actually as an undergrad, which was working in college admission. And I stayed in college admission then for forever, it felt like. Moved up, loved it. Honestly, I really did. I loved it very much until I didn't. Until I was director of undergraduate and graduate admission at a small school. I loved changing things and developing programs and all that kind of stuff. What I didn't love is that the reason that I got into all of the work that I ever did was because I love teenagers and young adults. They're just my favorite people. Something I was going to mention, Magda, is that I don't know what year you started Ask Moxie.

Magda: 2005.

Kimberly: Okay, so my daughter was born in 2006, and I started reading you Right around that time. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. I had a very, very, very difficult infant and a very, very, very difficult young child because, you know, she had ASD, she had ADHD, and she was highly gifted. She skipped a year in school. I mean, there were so, so many things. Young children had never been part of my work experience. Like, they just hadn't. I mean, I was dying to be a mother, but I was definitely looking more forward toward some of the later years. And because those first years were so hard, I really, really, really struggled. And I think that's part of what I bring now to my work, too, is that people like your blog and other people were, were people that I could look to and say oh, okay. This is like, this is a beacon in this time that's really hard for me. Where I am a, you know, someone I think of as a highly competent person, and I am struggling. Yeah, my ex-husband and I used to joke that we'd go to work on Monday because it was relaxing after a weekend with our one child.

Magda: Yeah.

Kimberly: And, you know, she's heard all these stories. She's literally my favorite human being on the planet. But those years were hard. And, you know, teenage years for a lot of people are hard. And so I want to be a person who can hopefully make those years a little bit easier. That's what motivates me.

Magda: Are you seeing any change in the market? And by “the market,” I mean, parents and like just word of mouth in life. People really wanting their kids to go to the highly rejective colleges?

Kimberly: Oh, it honestly just seems to get worse every year. And those schools are only getting worse. I mean, in terms of more restrictive. You know, my own alma mater, undergrad, Case Western, loved my experience there. Along the way, they wanted to be more selective. They market to people that they know won't be able to be admitted.

Magda: Like Northeastern.

Kimberly: To get them to apply. Yeah. And then they reject them and that bumps their admit rate down. Right. This is part of school's marketing budgets. That's what they do. They buy the names from the test companies and, you know, they market to them. And if you're a family that is not savvy, you know, I literally have parents be like, “but they got a letter!” And I'd be like, yeah. Yeah. The cost of that letter was worth it to them.

Magda: I also think a lot of them are smart enough to not charge application fees, either.

Kimberly: “Oh, yeah, because we'll waive the application fee for YOU”!

Magda: Our younger son who took a gap year, because his older brother told him to, and is now a first year student. I don't know why, like, he visited the college he's at now, and we walked off the tour and he said, “This is my first choice.”

Kimberly: I love that, though. He knew.

Magda: What we had done was, there was a school that was a public college. We toured it and he actually liked it. So we were like, oh, hey, great. This is your BATNA. We apply as soon as the applications are open. He got admitted five minutes later because he, you know, it was a state school and he fulfilled the requirements, right? So they let people in. So he'd didn't have to apply to any other schools because he would have been happy going to that school. So the college search with him was kind of a joy because it was just looking at, you know, where was he interested in? And then on like January 20th of that year, he texted me and he said, “Mom, I don't think I've applied to enough schools. And I don't think I've covered certain states. Can you find some schools for me to apply to in”--wait for it–“Kansas and Louisiana?” And I was like, okay. So I looked and we did find some places that were still accepting applications that I thought he would have been happy with in Louisiana. And then he just like went on a rampage and applied to, I think, like 12 more schools over the course of two weeks because of the Common App. These schools didn't have an application fee. And he knew how to sell himself because we had talked a lot about how we were packaging him to schools. And he just applied to all these sort of random schools, many of whom he didn't even check to see if he'd been admitted to lately, later. [Kimberly and DOug laugh]

Kimberly: Yeah.

Magda: But some of them I was still getting emails from on like June 15th. Like, “come, please come.”

Doug: I'm getting them now.

Magda: Yeah. Like, I think the no fees for applying, and flattering marketing to the kids–

Kimberly: Oh, yeah.

Magda: –has really done so much harm to the whole system.

Kimberly: High schools push it too, at least some of them. I mean, you know, private schools like to be able to say in their marketing materials, you know, “our students got into alllll these schools.” So they push kids to apply to more so that they have more to list. And even, you know, my daughter's public school, I mean, more than one teacher could not believe that she wasn't applying to college. Like, I came up at a parent conference. I had to be like, “It's okay. Let it go, please.” Fortunately, our guidance counselor was amazing. I said, you know, my kid doesn't care what people say to her. But there are kids who, let's just say, maybe they had a plan to, you know, go to trade school or to take a gap year or to do whatever. And they're getting this kind of messaging. They're going to internalize that. And I would encourage you to, you know, do some educating of your teachers. Literally, one of them told her that she would be a failure. In life.

Magda: Oh, wow. Well, and I think high school kids when they hear that stuff from people that they perceive as being kind of losers right because I mean, everybody has those high school teachers that you like that you think, “Oh like I know why they went into teaching.” But everybody has those high school teachers that you think are losers simply because they are high school teachers, right? So make it a certain point. It's like, “oh, I should go to college so I can insult kids like you do?”.

Doug: So we've talked about the process that does have some fundamental fraughtness to it. You know, it's a stressful time and it's a really tough time for a child of that development stage to endure. And so when you're working with a client, I think it's incumbent upon you to determine which is just the standard pains of the process and which is, wait a minute, there's a fundamental neurodivergence here that we need to address in a way that addresses their specific hurdles. How difficult is that to kind of say, most of this is normal, but this part is an outlier that we should really pour some more attention into?

Kimberly: That comes up a lot, especially when they're working on their personal statement, because I'm always like, hey, this is where you get to be you, right? You want to show the admission officer who you are and get them to really connect with you. You could talk about one of your accomplishments and tell a story, whatever. There's a lot of fear of, I think, sometimes fear of both success and failure that comes up. The neurodivergence, I mean, usually when I'm doing the college counseling, it's often already been diagnosed. And so what we're doing is saying, okay, I'm going to manage these pieces that I already know exist. And we're going to talk about what this is going to look like in college, whether that means identifying what kind of services the colleges can offer and to support the transition, whether I'm going to help support that transition. Because, you know, one of the things I tell parents and students all the time is that one of the big shocks of college is all the free time. And people like are blown away by this. And I'm like, listen, you know, I was the kid in high school that went to school in the dark and came home in the dark. I had all the things. And I said, you know, that's most kids today. Like I was kind of unusual, but, and you're going to go to college and a whole bunch of those things aren't going to be part of your life anymore. You know, people often say to me, well, you know, I'm worried about my kid playing a sport in college. I'll be like, honestly, statistically and from personal experience, that isn't as much of a worry for me. Because athletes have more structures in place, both just naturally because they have time that they have to be places, but they also have a whole coaching staff looking out for them that other kids don't have. And it's the kids who have never needed to go to class at 9am till 11 and then be free until 4.

Magda: Yeah.

Kimberly: Because, you know, there are going to be the people that are watching television or playing games or just hanging out and having snacks. And I'll be like, you know, you're an engineering student, you're a pre-med, whatever. You can take an hour, hour and a half of that time. Sure. But you can't take all those hours every Tuesday, Thursday, because you need to be reading or you need to be in the lab or you need to be whatever. And, you know, they'll be like, oh, I know, I know, you know, I have a lot of homework now. And I'll be like, right. But the homework you do now is literally slotted in from 8 to 11 at night. Like, you know that that's the only time that exists.

Magda: And you have to turn it in regularly in high school. Like in college, there are classes where you have nothing due the entire semester. And then suddenly you have a 15-page paper due. And that is your entire grade.

Kimberly: It's anticipating some of that. Even when we talk about like the type of schools, because. You know, a lot of times when I'm working with students, I'll say, you know, what schools have you heard of? Or are you thinking you might like if it's early, you know, if they're sophomores or early juniors, I'll be like, you know, let's just talk about the kinds of things. And, you know, they'll usually just spit out like their state school or a school that's like near their home or something. And here in Ohio, you know, I get a lot of Ohio State and Ohio State's a fantastic school, but it's enormous. It's the size of a city. Yeah.

And I'll say to kids, you know,

Magda: You know that Doug lives in Ann Arbor and I went to business school at Michigan.

Kimberly: Yeah, great. [Doug and Magda laugh]

Magda: Yeah, it's huge. It's enormous.

Doug: Columbus is a lovely place. Yes, for sure.

Magda: It's bigger than a lot of cities.

Kimberly: I had a client at Ohio State. This was several years ago. He was trying to figure out his major. And I was like, well, you know, what's a professor you've like connected with? And he's like, I haven't had a class lower than 250 students yet. So I haven't, I don't really know.

Magda: Wow.

Kimberly: And I was like, wow. Okay. All right. You know, well, let's, you know, work this a different way. And I, you know, I usually start with like, what's your average high school class size? 25, 30, you know, if it's a bigger school typically. And I'll be like, okay. So like, if you were in a class of 500, and you lost the train of what the professor was talking about, how would you handle that? Okay, professors usually have office hours, right? That would be one way. Big classes typically have teaching assistants. You're going to be assigned to one, you know, those kinds of things. But other kids will be like, oh, I don't want to be in a class with 500 students. I'll be like, okay. Then probably big state school is not going to be the best fit for you. Yeah.

Doug: Hello, Bowling Green.

Magda: Hey, Bowling Green's a great school. My sister went there.

Doug: I know. I'm just saying it's smaller. Yeah.

Kimberly: Yeah, it is. Exactly. I have a whole form I use about like, what kinds of things are you looking for? ‘Cause I do college research for them. You know, I'll ask like, tell me about what you think about school spirit because that matters. You know, at some schools, there just is very little of that. And if that's something that you really enjoy and would maybe like to be part of your experience, then, you know, we can find that. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, it's so it's not just, you know, “find me a school that has biology.” Listen. Almost every school in the UNited States has biology.

Magda: It's not the difference in the classes. It's the environment of the college that you're choosing.

Kimberly: It is. And that's a hard thing sometimes even to get people to understand. Some of my closest friends to this day, my ex-husband is from my undergraduate alma mater, but those people will be a network for you if you have a good experience and you want them to be. I always tell people, go to a place where you feel like there are people that you want to connect with. There's like 3000 accredited schools in the United States alone.

Magda: I think there are like 60 schools that would be the perfect fit for any given kid.

Kimberly: Oh, easily.

Magda: And there would be like a thousand schools that would be a disaster for any given kid.

Kimberly: Yes!

Magda: And your job is to pick one of the schools that wouldn't be a disaster. And if you happen on one that's a perfect fit?

Kimberly: Then amazing. Right.

Doug: And if it's a disaster, you just transfer out.

Kimberly: You transfer, right. You know, and I tell people that, too, like all is not lost if you need to transfer. But I mean, at least to have the conversation to say, hey, it's cool to go to a school where there are a few different things you might like to study, just in case. Since 80% of undergrads change their major at least once.

Magda: Right.

Doug: And I guess the other big challenge is adapting to new environments. I mean, it's like being a tax attorney. Every April, there's something new you have to incorporate into your strategy, all the new laws and so forth. And we've got a new climate at the federal level here. So when you think about the types of new challenges that your clients are going to face, what sorts of things are you experiencing and how are you advising them to react?

Kimberly: I work with a lot of different types of students. I do work with a lot of students with anxiety, depression, ADHD, ASD. I also work with a number of trans students and that's certainly been, as I've heard from them, you know, there's a lot of concerns that they're having right now about where it will be safe or safer to go to school. And I already vet schools extra-careful for those students, but that's going to be an ongoing concern and focus for me for sure. Yeah.

Magda: Well, okay. So Kim, if people want to get in touch with you and find out about you, because I'm not convinced that there are a whole lot of people doing exactly what you do for the population that you do.

Kimberly: Probably not.

Magda: I think there are a lot of straight up college counselors who are either going to get your kid into one set of schools or a different set of schools, but I really don't think they're are people out there that are just sort of listening to what the kids actually want and helping them find a plan that is going to be acceptable to the parents, too, that the parents can actually get behind. So if people want to find you, where do they find you?

Magda: On all the typical social media places as Navigator Kimberly, and also by my name, Kimberly and Shepherd spelled like the dog or the guy with the sheep. And my website is KimberlyShepherd.com.

Magda: Which is a big coup.

Doug: Well, I'm glad to share the stage with another person whose last name is a commonly heard adjective or noun. You can say shepherd as in pie and I can say French as in fries and we can all go out to lunch.

Magda: My last name means pork roast in Hungarian.

Kimberly: I figured you. I'm Hungarian, too! My real last name is Juhasz.

Magda: Oh! Okay, because you're from Cleveland. There you go. I'm from Toledo.

Kimberly: No, I'm from New Jersey.

Magda: Oh, you're from New Jersey?

Doug: What? So am I! Where are you from?

Kimberly: I’m a Jersey girl. Well, Milford, a town of 5000 on the Pennsylvania border.

Doug: I'm familiar. I know I know of it. You grow up thinking every city in the world is New York and then.

Kimberly: Right. It's THE city.

Doug: Yeah. Where's the rest of your city? Right. Why isn't it a mile in the air and full of filth? Well, from one Jersey person to another, it's been great to have you on to talk about college admissions.

Kimberly: I mean, it's been really great. Thank you.

Doug: It's a whole new adventure for a lot of people. Yeah. Given the challenges you're seeing and the skill set you have, it must be an extraordinary line of work.

Kimberly: Thank you so much for having me. I absolutely love my work and this was so much fun to talk about.

Doug: That is so clear. Oh my God, that comes across so strongly.

Kimberly: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Doug: And thank you for listening to Episode 69 of the When the Flames Go Up podcast with Magda Pecsenye Zarin and me, Doug French. Our guest has been Kimberly Shepherd, so you should get in touch with her, and if she doesn't email you back, she might be in witness protection. That's a callback from earlier. We'll see if that...

Kimberly: I love that.

Doug: Anyway, When the Flames Go Up is a production of Halfway Noodles LLC and is available on all the usual podcast platforms and at whentheflamesgoup.substack.com. Please subscribe there for our weekly episode every Wednesday and our newsletter every other Friday. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

[Theme music plays, then fades out.]

Kimberly: I was like, 69 is the great year because it's the year I was born.

Doug: Well, we got to use it then. All right, that's it. It's done. Magda and I will prattle on about something for 68 and then you're all set.

Magda: We will. You know what we should talk about? We should talk about the anti-Alzheimer's book.

Doug: Oh. You know, I'm not afraid to say it. I am anti-Alzheimer's.

Magda: Yes, I am. I also am.

Doug: I don't care for it. Not at all. Nope.