Episode 20: Transcript
"I knew I was very much falling head over heels there." - with Mike Zarin
Doug French: All right, now I know last week we said you were married, which you were, but you weren't.
Magda Pecsenye Zarin: Well, right, because we recorded it before I was actually married.
Doug: But now we are officially in real time saying that you're married and you are married.
Magda: It's true. We're recording this over a week after I actually got married.
Doug: I know. The thrill must be gone by now. The honeymoon's over.
Magda: I know. The honeymoon's totally over.
Doug: What did you think of the wedding?
Magda: I had a great time. I didn't know that I was going to be able to relax and let go as much as I did. But my friend Catherine volunteered to come and stage manage the whole wedding day for us.
Doug: Man, was she the right person for the job too.
Magda: Oh my gosh, isn't she? Right? Like, it's kind of funny that she's not an events person professionally.
Doug: But she's like, “people.” “People!” I think if you had a drinking game every time she said “people,” we'd all would have been on the floor.
Magda: It's funny. She's great at details and tone, and our friend Eliza came and we were joking around that she was Mission and Vision. She was kind of the artistic director of the whole thing. So I really started out the day before the wedding as soon as we had picked up all the stuff that we needed to pick up. I really did genuinely enjoy the moment. I think you saw me very relaxed when we went to the lookout point, right, which I went to the lookout point, I did not do the hike part because I'm not a hiker. But I went to the lookout point part and you were there and we got a photo of the four of us, the two of us with the kids, which was really nice. But that was not particularly representative of how I tend to live my life normally. You know, like I usually am not able to relax at all, but I was totally relaxed because other people were taking care of the stuff that they were supposed to be taking care of. Like we went back from the lookout point and everybody just showed up at the dinner the night before the wedding and the venue took care of everything. And I didn't really have to worry about anything. I mean, I chose beer. That was it. Yeah.
Doug: Why do you think you were able to be relaxed this time? I have a theory. We'd like to know what it is.
Magda: Oh, I sat myself down for a big talk that was “either you can enjoy this and it'll be flawed, or you can not enjoy this and it'll still be flawed.”
Doug: Are those your only choices?
Magda: Yeah. I mean, there's no, there's no, there's no possible scenario in which something is not going to go wrong. Like that, that's just not possible.
Doug: I don't think anything went wrong.
Magda: Oh, plenty of stuff went wrong, but I didn't care. I had taken my hands off the wheel.
Doug: The caterer was late. That's, that's essentially it.
Magda: Yeah, the caterer was late. And the sound system fuzzed out toward the end. And you know what, we returned the sound system the next day to the people we rented it from and told the lady about that. And Mike told her, and you know, Mike's like Mr. Non-Confrontational, and she said, “Oh yeah, sometimes that happens when you plug the speakers into the same circuit that a refrigerator is plugged into.” And I'm thinking like, “this is something you could have told us before.” And she knew exactly where we were going to be using this, and how that space is set up, like she could have said “plug it into these plugs instead of whatever.”
But am I gonna get upset about that? No, I'm not gonna get upset about it. But I mean, you were the one operating the sound system and you were like, “Why is this fuzzing out?” Turns out, because it was plugged into the same circuit as the refrigerator in the venue, and nobody thought to mention that.
But I mean, the thing is, if I had been really, really, really trying to control everything, if I had been very upset, if I had been like, “Oh my god, I put 20 hours into choosing these songs, and now no one can hear them,” like, I would have had a bad time. And it still would have been plugged into the refrigerator circuit and there wasn't anything I could have done about it.
So no, it's because I really sat down and forced myself to just not be an asshole about it.
Doug: And well, you know what I think also is possible? I think you woke up the morning of your wedding, convinced you were doing the right thing for a change.
Magda: Yeah, absolutely.
Doug: You know, I mean, that's kind of there's your body armor against any kind of incidental screw up.
Magda: Yeah, I mean, it's like the idea that I got to marry Mike is just still so delightful to me. But I just feel like I've pulled off some sort of major con or like just some coup somehow, that I got to marry this guy.
Doug: Well, I think it's hilarious that when he wanted to friend you on Facebook, when he sent you the friend request, he was thinking more of like, “she seems interesting, I should talk to her,” you know, and all I'd heard was the way you reacted when he said it to you and just the way those two disparate thoughts came together over the course of your courtship, I thought was really funny.
Magda: Yeah, I agree.
Doug: I mean, he had to be told he was having a date.
Magda: Yeah. I mean, he was so newly out of a bad marriage that I just don't really think he thought of himself as somebody that somebody would want to date. Whereas, you know, I had been out thrown to the wolves for what, 12 years or whatever. And I sort of knew who I was. And as I told Mike, one of the first times we were talking, if I know what the conversation is going to be that leads to the breakup with someone, I will just not start dating them. Because I am too old to waste energy throwing it out the window like that. You know how there are some people and you're just like, okay, I could 100% be friends with you because we're not that close. But if I was dating you or becoming best friends with you, like I know exactly what would end up just ruining our relationship. Just the way in which-
Doug: So you had that game down with Mike?
Magda: No, there wasn't anything. I couldn't imagine a conversation that would break us up.
Doug: Okay, so that's the new thing. That's like, wait a minute.
Magda: Yeah, that was the new thing.
Doug: This cannot end badly, you thought.
Magda: Right. Of course, that terrified me, right? Because, I mean, you've met him, you've talked to him, he's a very serious person. And I knew that I could not just sort of start dating him to see what was going to happen.
He wasn't somebody I could just sort of mess around with, to see.
Doug: Well, and you know, I can cut this out if you want.
Magda: What?
Doug: Well, I remember the conversations you and I had, we had a couple of them, you had some low moments. And we talked a lot about how you felt about it. You felt like, wait a minute, this could really be something.
Magda: And yeah, am I up to this? Yeah, exactly. I had to figure out if I was going to be up to it, you know.
Doug: And that's the biggest revelation for me, I think just an end from this conversation that we're about to broadcast just because each of you kind of had to get over a hump. I mean, in Mike's case, absolutely. He's in a complete fog just because he's been married longer than we were and had been divorced less time than we had, which applied pressure in both directions to his overall aphasia. And he had to realize that there was more there with you and you knew that there was something there and you had to realize you were up to the challenge. I think that's fascinating.
Magda: Yeah, exactly.
Doug: You know, I wanted to put a theme to this, the whole idea of romance and reconnection, because a lot of people are doing it. I know a lot of people who have reconnected with people they knew in high school, college, and are lucky enough to A, be single at the same time, B, reconnect and find that spark at the same time, or at least close enough that it can be cultivated. And you're a good example of that because I think of anything else, what I will remember about your wedding is how much absolute love there was in that room.
Magda: Yeah, there really was.
Doug: It was start to finish. I mean, your family were so nice to me and mutual friends that showed up and it was great to see them again. And it just was a really happy experience start to finish because the way you couldn't stop smiling and I had the best vantage point in the whole room behind you. It struck me that that's the real glue in this whole situation. You guys really love each other.
Magda: Yeah, we really do. And we just really like being together too.
Doug: Throughout the moistness.
<music>
Doug: What are you laughing at?
Magda: I'm laughing at the fact that this thing always says “actual recording is higher quality” when you first hit record, you know, on the interface and I'm also, it just seems like it's kind of making that comment about the way we look more than anything else.
Doug: I always think it's just saying, look, we know your recording is shit, but trust us, we're doing a better job than you are.
Magda: Right, exactly.
Doug: So, thanks a lot, guys. Your passive aggression can take a seat, thank you. Well, this is a big episode. This is a great fan service episode for the people who want to learn more about the lead-up to this great life event we had last weekend when Mike Zarin put a Z on the end of Magda Pecsenye. And she became MPZ to our fans.
Magda: That sounds weird, the way you said that.
Doug: Okay, yeah, I guess. Does it sound like you didn't have a role in that?
That Hot Mike Zarin: It's like a Sesame Street kind of a thing. I’ve got a giant Z.
Doug: Well, actually, it's more Electric Company.
Magda: It is a little bit more Electric Company.
Doug: More like Letterman taking the Z off his varsity sweater and Magda Pecsenye into Magda Pecsenye Zarin.
Magda: Right.
Doug: And if you are as old as we are, you get that reference. Do you remember who narrated those?
Mike: Not I.
Magda: No. Was it Morgan Freedman?
Doug: Freedman?
Magda: Morgan Freeman.
Doug: Morgan Freedman, the economist?
Magda: Milton Friedman, the economist. Morgan Freeman, the actor. Did I say Morgan Freedman?
Doug: You did.
Magda: Oh, I tried to say Morgan Freeman. I don’t know.
Mike: I know Tom Lehrer was involved with Electric Company music.
Doug: Right, but they were narrated by Joan Rivers.
Mike: No, I did not remember that.
Magda: Wow. Fascinating.
Doug: I mean, the star power on that show was something else. Yeah. And I still, when I hear the opening theme, the Hey You Guys theme, I get goosebumps.
Magda: Yeah.
Doug: I just remember how much of a comfort that show was every day after school. But, to make a short story long, you guys are married now.
Episode 20 is all about how that came to be and how it was some 30 years in the making. I think it's great for listeners here. They are very familiar with Magda's voice and this is Mike's time to shine. This is your chance to confirm or deny what she's been saying for all these months.
Mike: Well, you know, like Magda is kind of like the PR firm of this couple. She likes to go out and write puff pieces about me and in the same way that she likes to promote her children.
Doug: Well, then you listeners are very happy to hear about the dark underbelly of Mike Zarin that doesn't permeate the PR shield that Magda creates for her over and over again.
Mike: It's kind of nice how I've gotten this nickname through her, THMZ, That Hot Mike Zarin.
Doug: Oh, yeah. I should put that on the placard when we get your headshot.
Magda: That was just because when he friend requested me on Facebook in 2018 or 2019, whatever it was.
Doug: Always a big step in a relationship for sure.
Magda: Well, it was for him, I think, because he's not the kind of person who accepts or requests friendships from anyone that he doesn't actually know in real life.
Mike: Now, and this is part of the story, is that I had seen Magda's presence on mutual friends’ Facebook pages, and on LinkedIn, and saw her posts about the Flash Consulting stuff. And she had interesting things to contribute on other people's pages. And I was like, “Gosh, you know, it would be so interesting to connect and, you know, find out more about this whole Flash Consulting thing and reconnect after all these years,” but it just felt so weird to me to go out and introduce myself to someone who I kind of tangentially knew back in college. You know, we had the acapella thing in common that we overlapped slightly, but like the idea of connecting to an almost complete stranger, it just felt like such a big step. So yeah, it took me a few years before I finally got up the courage to just friend request her. And then I did.
Doug: Well, wait, for the sake of the timeline, you were divorced at this point?
Mike: No, no, no. This was, like, I was still married and I just thought she sounded like an interesting person. And it wasn't in any fashion, like, romantic. And so, you know, like, that didn't seem like grounds for a friend request at the time.
Doug: But you have really high bar criteria.
Mike: You know, I guess I do. There should be a little bit more there before I, like, send out a request. But eventually I just gave in and did it, so.
Magda: Well, he didn't know that I had had a crush on him in college.
Doug: This is the revelation, right? He's talking about this as like, “she'd be a fun person to read her newsletter.” And you're like, “exactly.”
Magda: And I got the friend request from him. And I was like, I didn't think he knew who I was, because I had had a crush on him. And I had attempted to talk to him two or three times while we were in college. And he blew me off every time.
Doug: See, now I've got this whole image of you singing hopelessly devoted to you.
Magda: He wasn't the only person I had a crush on ever! The friend request came in and I said, “Ooh, that hot Mike Zarin friend requested me.” So I accepted the friend request right away. Because I was surprised that he knew who I was. I thought that he thought that he was too smart for me. He was on
Doug: Who could be smarter than you?
Magda: Well, not very many people, but Mike graduated summa from college with a physics major.
Doug: Well, so he has a very particular ability in an arcane bit of study. Okay. That works.
Magda: Physics isn’t that arcane. I mean, I will say it does make me laugh when the Phi Beta Kappa magazine arrives in the mail in this household. Yeah.
Doug: Well, I'm just saying more so than like, you know, humanities, you know, English majors, communications majors, that bullshit. I mean, he definitely had the smarts to specialize in something that he was really good at. I love how we're talking about this as if Mike's not here.
Mike: Well, you know, I'm just kind of like waiting for the, you know, the opening in the conversation. You know, you'll let me know when you're ready.
Magda: There's never going to be an opening in a conversation.
Doug: Okay, so as Magda knows, I am fascinated by alternate points of view when a point of contact is made. It's all about the calculus. It's all about a point exists only in the context of what has come before and what is to come on that fraction of a delta x. And so I love the fact that you guys made contact and you had this point of view of like, “Oh, she sounds really interesting. I want to learn more about what she's about.”
And she had this other reason to start manipulating people.
Magda: I didn't even have any opening to manipulate him for a while.
Doug: Yes, I know you. Your first thought was, “The game is afoot.”
Magda: Well, I mean, okay, yeah.
Doug: So here's the opening in the conversation, right? So then when that first contact came about, how did that progress to phone calls, to daily walks, to courtship?
Mike: So, you know, when we first connected on social media and LinkedIn, I was still married. And, you know, so we were just...
Doug: Always a good sign.
Mike: Yeah. So, you know, it wasn't like anything was going to happen. And then in 2020, I separated from my then-wife, and kind of like getting to know myself as an individual instead of as part of a couple. And, you know, like after seven months, nine months of that, I finally had this idea of getting in touch with Magda to actually have a conversation because in some of her writings online, she had shared that she had blogged about the divorce process with you. And I thought, well, here goes nothing. “So hey, Magda, would you be up for a phone call to reconnect and talk about the divorce process and maybe about flash consulting?
And how about tonight?” Because I had read that sometimes it's a really nice thing to, instead of saying, like, can we talk sometime, to actually specify a time so that, you know, if it works, great, and if it doesn't, they can counter, but it sort of like cuts out some of the ambiguity and mushiness.
Doug: “Talk sometime” means it'll never happen, agreed.
Magda: Yeah, so July 10th, precisely.
Mike: And so like, I get back from this July 10th walk, go up to the room over the garage where I'm staying. And what was your question again?
Magda: It was something like that. It was like, “Mike, hi, how are you?”
Mike: And I said, “moist,” because I had just come back from a walk. And I knew that this was a trigger word for some people, but felt like being a little bit, you know, silly, as Magda will...
Doug: I don't think you felt that comfortable around her to lead with moist. That's...
Magda: It was a test. I think he figured if I didn't hang up, then I was in for the next 40 years.
Mike: Well, I don't know that I would agree with that, but I just, I don't think I had particular thoughts about that, in the same way that you got through during the wedding ceremony, you know, sharing that deep, “I will love you forever and always.” And my response was, “thank you.”
Doug: You didn't think about that ahead of time? You just said it off the cuff. So that's real swell of you to say, that was a highlight, that was that was a funny ad-lib, for real a highlight among many highlights.
Magda: Yeah, I mean I said the vows, which I had written down, kind of standard vows, and then Mike said, “thank you.”
Mike: Well, you know there was like the pause. Like, what kind of response does this merit? Should I just jump in my reading?
Magda: It wasn't supposed to be a response. You were just supposed to repeat the same thoughts to me.
Doug: Well, this speaks to how thorough, with air quotes, your “rehearsal” was. Your rehearsal was the most, all right, you do this, you do that, blah, blah, blah, blah. She sits, he sits.
Magda: That's the way all rehearsals are.
Doug: No, they're not. It was a 20-minute ceremony. You could have acted it all out start to finish if you chose to. But it was the most kind of like, all right, you do this. I was talking to Eliza about this. I was like, “Eliza, are they going to rehearse this at all?” And she's like, “I'm not in a position to suggest that.”
Magda: You know that Eliza's job is change management.
Doug: I know. Yes. That's why she was clearly sitting in the back row.
And she had that look on her face that said, “this should be a bit more nailed down, I think.” Or at least that's what I interpreted anyway and so I approached her with that and we were like, you know what? Yep, you're right. It's their day. They're in charge.
Mike: Well, the thing is, like, I would say our ceremony sort of highlighted the joy that is our relationship, you know, from the “Cue number 19” from Price Is Right as our processional music to our hymn, “Never Gonna Give You Up.”
Doug: Yes, you earnestly Rickrolled your audience.
Magda: It wasn't truly a Rickroll because we had it listed in the program that we were going to sing it.
Doug: Yeah, I saw it coming. Yeah.
Mike: So people saw it coming.
Doug: Looking for the right word.
Mike: I don't know what it is, but, you know, we talked about, well, do we want to hide the words under people's chairs so that, you know, when it's time for it, you know, it's like, you know, to truly surprise people. And my response to that idea was really, I don't want this to be a joke ON our audience. We want this to be a joke WITH our audience.
Doug: Right.
Mike: And so we're just going to list it right there in the program. And you know, when they see it, they'll appreciate it. But it won't be like a joke on them.
Doug: Yeah, that was a good choice. Yeah.
Mike: I didn't even really think it was like a joke joke, necessarily.
Magda: It was very important to me that all the guests, like the whole group, sing together in the service. I don't know why, so much, but I think people like singing together. And Mike and I met singing. We sang in a choral group at college. He didn't realize and
Mike: It's like, you were in choir too? I had no idea. Oh my gosh.
Doug: Another chapter in the book of oblivious men.
Mike: Oh yes. Well, I knew you were a Looney Tunes.
Doug: Of which I'm a proud member, too. So there's no judgment here.
Magda: I have to say, I did consider “I Want It That Way” because everybody also knows that song, but the lyrics to that are completely not at all wedding appropriate. I had never paid any attention to the lyrics before. They're not okay for that.
Doug: And thank you for not choosing “The One I Love” also, in that same vein. All right, Magda survives the moist comment.
Magda: I welcomed the moist comment because I am another person who is not only not grossed out by the word moist, I find the word moist hilarious because other people are grossed out by it.
Doug: Right. And I just think of cake. I think that's a thing that should be moist and you can't just demonize a word just because one usage is delicious and another is yet less so.
Mike: So, so anyway, so after that intro, you know, we chatted and we chatted and three hours later, it's like getting on towards like, gosh, this is like, going really well, but it's getting kind of late. So what do you say we, like, end the call, but make plans to talk again?
Doug: At a specific time.
Mike: Well, yeah. So I was like, well, I'm going to be moving back over to the house to be with the kids and, you know, swap places with my then separated spouse.
Doug: That's how you guys were doing it? Because you had that room over the garage, you were kind of nesting that way?
Mike: Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, like I guess we'll talk in like two weeks. And Magda said, sure. And then...
Magda: I was laughing though. I was like, really? Well, but he had also said to me during this conversation that he didn't think he was going to be ready to date for like two years.
Mike: Yeah. You know, cause I was like, you know, just recently separated. Yeah.
Doug: Well, you should be lucky then. ‘Cause he suggested two weeks.
He could have said, “let's talk in two years.”
Mike: After that, I was like, gosh, I don't want to wait two weeks. And so, a couple days later, I was like, “Okay, I think I've got an actual question. So I'll just see if she's okay to talk sooner than then.” And because I was in the house with the kids and didn't want to involve them in this, like, whatever kind of relationship it was, I proposed, well, let's go on a walk in the morning while the kids are asleep or in the house. And then we decided that we liked to talk so much that we should just do it again the next morning. Even though Magda doesn't like to walk, she agreed to go on walks with me, her in Detroit, me in Massachusetts. And we just kept talking every morning and...
Doug: And soon we saw the purple balaclava.
Mike: I think my mom bought the balaclava for you.
Magda: Yeah, because my face was getting too cold when we were out on these walks, and I didn't want to tell Mike, “I don't want to walk. It's 10 degrees below.” I don't even know why I agreed to walk the first day. I wouldn't have had to walk. I lived alone. I could have just been sitting in the living room talking to him on the phone while he was out walking, but I thought I had to walk. So here we are, three years later.
Doug: No, I get that. I thought it was a pretty cool story actually. I think that's...
Mike: It was really adorable and I have never been adorable before and I'm still not used to it.
Doug: It's kind of a stretch for you being adorable.
Magda: It's really a stretch for me being adorable.
Doug: Well, does that mean feeling adorable?
Magda: I guess I felt adorable before, but I'm just not whimsical. I'm also not adorable. It's just not my brand.
Doug: You're really pretty abrasive in general.
Magda: I am. I'm cynical and abrasive. I'm simultaneously happy and abrasive.
Doug: Well, I mean, there's room for both. There's room for both. I mean, granted, for what it's worth, I thought you were adorable because you were abrasive. You know what I mean? Just because there was this no-nonsense quality about you. The quality of you that I'll always admire till I kick over is just this blunt diagnostician who just kind of says, all right, let's go. What do you got? Who needs what? Let's get to it.
Magda: It's true.
Doug: That's always been your way. And so that's what I found adorable.
And that's what I think motivates my willingness to be your friend now, just because I've always enjoyed that when we were back in the conference room and back in the 1900s.
Magda: It's true.
Doug: That was a fun time. And even when we were breaking up and you would be like, okay, we need to pause the acrimony so we can talk about Eliot Spitzer. You know, there's, there's just a real emotional bluntness to that. You have this way of cutting through nonsense that I think is an asset most of the time.
Magda: Most of the time. Yeah.
Doug: So, um, Mike, how would you gauge her adorableness from 1 to 10, given her abrasiveness factor?
Mike: My comment about Magda's abrasiveness was meant as a joke.
Because I do think she's adorable. And yes, I know she has some strong opinions, and not all of them are favorable about all people or things.
So you could say that she can be you know, blunt, and I don't know, at least in our relationship, I feel like we tend to have such high opinions of the other person's point of view, that when there's some comment about something I could have done better, I take it as, like, from an earnest lovingness, as opposed to, like, a lashing out to hurt me kind of thing.
Does that make sense?
Doug: Yeah, it's metal sharpening metal.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Magda: There are very few things about you that I actually think could be improved.
Doug: See, now that's a rave right there. Put that on your business cards.
Magda: Grilled cheese is always going to be at the top of the list.
Doug: There's a story behind the grilled cheese. Do you make subpar grilled cheese?
Magda: He is a monster about grilled cheese. This is the thing. He decides in advance how many grilled cheeses he's going to make.
Mike: How many will fit on the griddle. Yes. So if I can make like 10 sandwiches or whatever all at once.
Magda: And even if he only had you coming over to eat grilled cheese with him, he would still make 10 grilled cheeses because he then takes the leftover grilled cheeses and puts them in the refrigerator. And when he wants to eat one the next day, he pulls it out and puts it in the microwave to heat it up.
Doug: Oh, my Lord.
Magda: He's a monster.
Doug: It's an interesting impulse for like maximum utility. I get that.
Mike: I'm lighting up this griddle. I might as well get the most out of the energy I'm expending to create these sandwiches.
Doug: Exactly. But a microwave refrigerated grilled cheese sandwich, Mike. There are few things more abominable than that. It's like why don't you just serve a kidney you found.
Magda: He loves it when people tell this story about him, too, because he is such a rule follower in all ways that this is like his one just like flaunting the system, flaunting the laws of physics, flaunting all ethics.
And like, this is his Darth Vader moment, right here.
Doug: He's a rebel and will never be any good. Because he's cranking out some corpulent grilled cheeses and eating the soggy remnants the next day. Oh, man, that's adorable. So now we've each established a benchmark of adorableness with the two of you. And actually, if I get this right, now, how soon between when you started talking in earnest, like everyday walking, and then when did the initial idea of marrying come up? I understand that was pretty quick, even though the actual ceremony with the ring didn't happen until last Christmas.
Mike: Early on in our conversations, I had no idea that Magda liked me or was attracted to me.
Magda: Janet said, “She talks to you every morning for like an hour to an hour and a half.” He said to Janet–
Mike: I just didn't know that you had any interest in me until you mentioned that you had talked about me to your women's group or your like, divorced mom's group, whatever it was.
Doug: Yeah, if you say group, you have to be more specific. I mean, she's got more groups than I've had hot dinners. There you go.
Mike: Yeah, so I was like, oh, okay, because, you know, I was like, I was starting to have feelings for her. And so I asked her, you know, like, “Are you seeing anyone?” And your response was like, “Why would I be talking to you on a Friday night?”
Doug: For three hours.
Mike: For three hours. If I was dating something else.
Magda: Exactly.
Doug: All right. So Magda, what is your understanding of what he said to Janet after Janet came to him with that?
Magda: So first of all, in the very first three hour conversation, which he proposed having on Friday morning at like 10 AM, he sent me this message: “I know we've never spoken before, but I thought it would be great to talk. Do you want to talk on the phone tonight at 730?" Which was very bold to me. And I was like, oh, I think I got asked out on a pandemic date. Right? So...
Doug: Bold as love.
Magda: In this conversation, I said to him, number one, I had a crush on you in college. Number two, you still look good. That's a pretty big sign.
Doug: Oh, wow. That's a couple of softballs right there, Mike.
Magda: Right? But he did not put those two together. He didn't put them together. But Janet, Janet was like, she likes you. And he was like, “Oh, no, no, no.I don't understand the transitive property of mathematics.” So I can't put those two statements together and get anything out of it that makes sense. And so Janet then said to him, well, she talks to you every morning, for an hour, an hour and a half, and he said to Janet, “Maybe she just doesn't have anything better to do.”
Doug: Oh, my God. All right, so now we've established this was a straight up rescue mission. This was evac. This was psychic evac.
Magda: So then he figured out when I said, it was just a group of friends, right? And I had said, “Oh, I'm talking to this guy. And here, let me just link to his profile, so you guys don't have to do any like legwork to check him out. Here he is.” And they had said, “Oh, he's cute.” And I told Mike that and then he put together that I'd been telling other people that we were talking and figured out that I liked him.
Doug: What do you think, Mike? Does that jibe with what you thought?
Mike: Yeah, pretty much. I have a history of getting together with women and not realizing that I've been on dates. And even when it was like dinner and dancing, I still didn't know it was a date. So I'm just a little slow in the interpersonal understanding. Yeah, I see you nodding there.
Doug: No, I'm saying I'm nodding with empathy, just because I think every man at one point or another has been there when...
Mike: Yeah, I mean, there are definitely some people, you know, and we can call them men, you know, there are some men who assume that anytime they get together with someone, it's a date and the person is like hot to trot and whatever. And there are other people who just...
Doug: “Hot to trot.” Adorable factor just got ramped up. Continue.
Magda: I've married my grandmother.
Doug: “Oh, that's just a bunch of malarkey.”
Magda: Exactly.
Doug: Posh.
Mike: And there's those of us who are like, I have no fucking idea. ‘Cause like, if I guess and I guess wrong, then the damage is going to be irreversible.
Doug: But what are you damaging though? If you guess wrong, but if there's nothing there to damage,
Magda: This isn't a skill that he needs to develop now, right?
Doug: I think there are a lot of people in their 50s when they're dating, they're trying to put aside the dater they were in the 20s. They want to think, I've learned something over three decades. I've figured out more about myself. I figured out more about interpersonal relationships. But at the same time, we're also very subject to our kid fears. We're still subject to worrying about screwing up or whatever else. And Mike's right, you know, for every guy who's like, every time I'm with a woman, it's going to end in sex. And there's guys like us who need a bit more persuasion, or at least direction or communication, right? Stand on this spot, you know. So it sounds like you struggled with a lot as a 50 year old divorcee or as a mid 40 year old divorcee. How would you describe your emotional state as a romantic person after your marriage ended?
Mike: Like, you know, as Magda was saying, like, I thought I was going to need a couple years to, like, get myself back in the groove, if I had ever had a groove, which I didn't really. It took Magda to sort of communicate to me that I might be someone who's worth getting to know.
Doug: I love that.
Mike: No one had really shone a light on that for me. I hadn't really seen myself as someone worth being pursued.
Doug: Well, we all struggle with that. When a marriage has fallen apart, I mean, I know my esteem as a partner took a hit. And it's like you say, getting that groove back is a process for everybody. For some people, they rebound right away, and I'm not that guy, and you're not that guy either. But at the same time, the question I asked a little while ago, you guys were talking about marriage pretty early on, right?
Mike: Yeah. So, you know, we've been talking on the phone for however many weeks at that point. And I knew that myself, at least, I was kind of like very much falling head over heels there. And I was kind of wondering, like, we really need to get together in person. So we decided, well, you're in Detroit, I'm in Massachusetts, so let's find a place like halfway-ish between us and meet in person.
Doug: That was the famous Buffalo week.
Mike: You know, rented a VRBO, went out for dinners and hung out in the VRBO and that was about it, you know.
Doug: And watched Bring It On.
Mike: Yeah, exactly. And we did some Netflix and chill, but we actually watched some Netflix, but... So anyways, we kind of like locked ourselves in a house together and decided that yes, we did have some chemistry and some number of weeks after that, I was like...
Magda: It was the next week. It was the week after.
Mike: Okay, the week after. Yeah, okay. So...
Magda: The seventh week we had been talking.
Mike: I was much more of a math science person than history, so I am grateful that Magda has a head for these dates. Anyways, so the next week, we're on the phone, and I'm like, why put this off? Why pussyfoot around this? I think we both are very serious about this and want to spend the rest of our lives together. You want to get married? Or something more romantic than that, probably.
Magda: It was a lot more romantic than that.
Doug: But again, I love how your perception of this moment still seems very different. I mean, it's great that it ended up the way it did, but it's funny how you're just like, your recollection of what you said is different from what she heard, which I love.
Mike: Well, yeah, I mean, my memory is very poor. I mean, I agree it was a lot more romantic, but Magda's going to have to tell that story because like, oh man, Magda, please help me.
Doug: Well, I'll tell you what, while you're in this state, I want to quickly interject and say, what was it like to announce to all the assembled about Magda's affections in front of her parents?
Mike: You know, I didn't think that it was controversial. It was just alluding to the fact that, you know, we like to be affectionate with each other, right?
Doug: Yeah, but if you could have seen the shit-eating grin on your face when you said that. And the follow up the way the crowd received that comment. Uh-huh, yes. Those of you who saw the live broadcast, this is on tape somewhere. We can show him exactly what he looked like when he mentioned that. Anyway, yes, that was a great, again, another highlight. That was fantastic. But what I'm getting at with the idea, the whirlwind of this, I mean, it's clearly you're still in the honeymoon phase, and that's fantastic. And I have to say that when I look, no, but I mean, that's what it's supposed to be. But one of the things that I think Magda and I never learned how to do, which I realized the importance of after our marriage was over was just to learn how to fight. And I mean that in like just the purest sense because people are going to disagree and any two people who enter into a marriage have to figure out when to build boundaries, when to die on a hill and when not to, how to apologize.
There's so much more to that that I've learned so much more about after our marriage ended that that marriage taught me to appreciate, because I've never seen my parents fight. I never learned that from my parents.
Whenever they did fight, they made sure no kids were around. And you know, my dad never talked to me about that. And so now that you're married, and you've been together for three some years, especially now that you live together, because that's new-ish to a couple of months.
How is your relationship maturing now to enter its commitment phase where you learn how to perfect that push-pull and how comfortable do you feel knowing that because you love each other that ultimate little rockier place will survive because you have that baseline of affection for each other? Affection in air quotes.
Mike: I would say that we definitely have differences of opinions and I feel like we're so protective of the other person that we are very respectful and caring in our disagreeing. I have no idea what this is going to be like in 10, 15 years.
Doug: Minutes.
Mike: Yeah, exactly.
Doug: All four seasons in one day. That's our girl.
Mike: I think we have enough experience observing discord in other relationships that we are very careful. The idea that you might object to the idea but never to the person, that kind of thing. At least so far, have prioritized the relationship over the content.
Magda: Yeah. From the very beginning, one of the things that I noticed really strongly was that you had such care for me. Like you were always trying to protect me and kind of cushion me from things. And I appreciated that so much. And the other thing I had noticed about you even back in college was that you are so serious. You know, the first time I went to your mom's house and saw her like shrine wall with all pictures of you and your brother.
Doug: The twins.
Magda: And like, wait, what did you say?
Doug: Little twin Anderson Coopers. Oh, the twin Anderson Coopers.
Little twin Anderson Coopers. You do look a lot like your brother. It was so obvious as soon as I saw him across the room. I'm like, that is a sibling.
Mike: Yes, now that we've got our hair cut the same way, like unlike way back in the day. Yeah, but it's a rock and roll hairdo.
Magda: Yeah, I think you, Mike, are just so serious and you take things so seriously. And you take me and my feelings so seriously, that I just don't want to take that for granted. I don't ever want to cry wolf. And what that means is that if it's not that big a deal, it just really isn't that big a deal. I'd rather just shoot rock, paper, scissors than take up any of your emotional energy. You know what I mean? And the times that we have actually hurt each other, I think we've both been so concerned about how to make it right that that's just what it gets down to. Right.
Mike: And there will be some life decisions to make farther down the road when all the kids are out of the house and that'll come when it'll come.
Doug: And that's actually where I wanted to lead because the flip side of that is how have you guys found that you complement each other? Because you are different people. I mean, I know you tangentially for the moment. I do hope to get to know you better over the years if we get the opportunity, but when you think of the different personalities you have, the different instincts you have, how do they blend? How do they complement each other?
Mike: Part of it is like, I have such appreciation and respect for Magda's superpowers where it's like, you know, analysis and communication and relational intelligence as just a few examples. Where, you know, my strengths are in, you know, like, I know you could say executive function is a superpower, but, okay, Magda's nodding at that one.
Magda: I mean, like, since I've moved in here to Mike's house, if I want to know where something is, I can ask him, and he knows where it is, because he puts it in the same place every time! He's a walking database.
Doug: There's something to be said for being an Excel file. I'm still in awe of the things you're going to find when that house in Detroit gets cleaned out finally.
Magda: I know. I can't even imagine.
Doug: I can't even imagine.
Magda: There's probably like a family living in the back of one of the closets there.
Doug: But this will be when that hot Mike Zarin comes in with his spreadsheet frame of mind. He's going to help you sort that stuff.
He's going to help you be like, all right, yeah. Yeah.
Mike: Well, I mean, when on at least one visit to Magda in Detroit, I noticed that Magda had laundry in many different locations in her house.
And I thought that it would be a service to both of us if we, as part of the decluttering operation, found all of the laundry and put it where it belonged.
Doug: But that's the thing, you don't know where it belongs.
Magda: Right, I don't even have a concept of it belonging.
Doug: There are no outposts. There are no designated storage regions for anything in specific.
Magda: I don't have the ability to put that together.
Doug: That's true.
Mike: So one of the projects was, okay, now we have all of this clean laundry. Let's sort it. You've got this dresser. Wouldn't it be cool if we designated a dresser drawer for just t-shirts and nothing but t-shirts?
Magda: Then the drawer is shut and I don't remember that the t-shirts exist.
Doug: The fact that your object impermanence persists, I think is a comfort. Remember we used to joke about getting a Lucite fridge?
Magda: Yeah, like one of the fridges that they have like for drinks at the pizza place.
Mike: So you can look in there and say we already have three dozen eggs, there's no need to buy a fourth.
Magda: Well, so when we got back, we went grocery shopping. I made the impulse purchase of Concord grapes. I'm not a big grape fan, but I love Concord grapes and it's Concord grape season. So we bought Concord grapes. And then this morning, Mike said to me, are you going to eat your Concord grapes? And I had forgotten about them because they were in the fruit thing. I didn't remember that I had them. And I got so excited. I was like, “Oh my God, I have Concord grapes!” I got to buy them all over again, only I didn't have to spend any money. I got delight from them. So there's something to be said for sheer delight of being ADHD, like I am. But it's not so good for putting things away.
Doug: Well, if that's not an example of extreme complimentary skill and care, I'm not sure what is.
Magda: Yeah.
Doug: If only, if Mike is there just to remind you what you already have.
Magda: Right. Well, and I think Mike was like, why aren't you eating the grapes?
Mike: Well, you know, I wanted to make sure that, you know, like you bought them cause you like them and you haven't had them yet. So, you know, just a little prompt, like, you don't have to eat them, but you know, you might like to.
Magda: Oh my gosh, I'm so delighted that they were there.
Doug: So how do you think, Mike, when you approach her with these suggestions in such a diplomatic way, do you feel as though over time you'll be able to just kind of say something bluntly and directly and just say, “Hey, your grapes are over there, or…”
Magda: Why would he ever need to do that? He, by the time we had been dating for, I don't know, like two months, he had already perfected this way of speaking to me that makes me think that I'm the one making the decisions when really it's just him suggesting it. And I'm completely aware that it's happening. And yet it makes me feel so good about being in control that I don't even care that I'm not really in control.
Mike: I can be direct. I'm not often direct.
Magda: Well, okay. You are so blunt.
Doug: Well, you have a scientist's approach to something. At the same time, it sounds as though, you know, you're cultivating that. You're cultivating a more tactful approach to, again, manipulating Magda into thinking she knows what she's doing.
Mike: I mean, that implies that this is like my intention to manipulate, but it's really like, you know, it would be nice if the kitchen counter was cleared out before our guests come. I realize that's exactly what a manipulator says, all of that. I'm not manipulating you.
Magda: Well, but I think part of it also is that Mike has figured out that it's not that I don't want to clean off the counter. It's that I have no idea where to put the things that are currently on the counter.
Mike: So let's work as a team.
Magda: So he solves the problem of where do those things go? And then all of the friction to my clearing the counter is gone. Like why would I not clear the counter if I knew where all this stuff was supposed to go?
Mike: I know, I'm sure we can come up with a better example than the kitchen counter clearing.
Magda: Probably.
Doug: I think I might have the example because the other topic I wanted to talk about today, I mean, it's great to hear these insights into how you were thinking, how you were approaching this relationship, and how it kind of toggled over pretty quickly when it was explained to you, which it tends to do. But I'm wondering now, you've been diagnosed with MS since when?
Mike: That was 2003, plus or minus.
Doug: So it's been a long time you've lived with this and known how to guard against it, treat your body different ways to keep it at bay and so forth. So what was your process of how and when you would tell Magda about it?
Mike: Well, I honestly can't remember when I told you about it, Magda.
Magda: You told me about it within the first 20 minutes of talking that night. At the time, I thought maybe it was just something you told everyone that you were trying to date.
Mike: Without knowing that I was trying to date.
Doug: You had it written on your hand as a checklist of things.
Magda: I mean, when I was dating...
Doug: Hello, I'm moist and I have MS and... Check, check. Okay.
Magda: Um, well, when I was dating, I would tell people that I had kids within one of the first three or four sentences I said to them, because I just didn't want that to be a thing that you know, like, if somebody was not interested in dating somebody with kids, I needed them to just not be interested in dating me, right away. And I just kind of assumed it was the same thing with you. You were just so matter of fact about it was like, Oh, okay, cool.
Mike: I have no recollection of how I said it or why I said it or when I said it, but I do know it is something that I have been extremely, extremely lucky with. If you're going to have MS, the main symptoms I have are some numbness in my hands, primarily. I've got balance, I've got vision, at least as far as I know I've got cognition.
Doug: And she'd probably tell you if you didn't.
Magda: I wouldn't do that.
Mike: You know, I've been on, like, multiple different medications over the years, and I guess technically it's relapsing, remitting. I'm being followed by a neurologist and getting regular MRIs to see, like, is it progressing? Nope, it looks good. But apart from some double vision probably, like, 10 years ago at this point, I haven't really had much of a concern. Okay, I did have some, like, claw hand, but I can't tell if that was, like, MS or psoriatic arthritis, which is another fun thing I have. So yay for the autoimmune disorders. But other than that, I'm super healthy, man. Super healthy.
Magda: You are incredibly healthy, aside from the autoimmune diseases.
Doug: And blessings on your house for that. Well, it sounds like you told her before you even infused it with any stakes. It was just something that you just sort of said. Because there's a type of person who says, I'm in love with this person. And I'm scared that if I tell her I have this autoimmune disorder, it'll scare her off. And I think there's a level of comfort that Magda brings, because I get the impression, I mean, granted, you had a long time to process it. You hadn't just been diagnosed with it. You've known it for 20 years. You just never know how someone's going to react to something like that. But the fact is, though, I think if there is anyone who would not react in a negative way, it would be Magda.
Mike: Yeah.
Magda: Why would you react in a negative way to somebody having an autoimmune disease, right?
Doug: Well, just because people are scared. People react poorly to things they don't understand and don't want to deal with. And then that's not you.
Magda: I guess. I don't know. I mean, I talked a lot to our kids about, you know, you can tell me anything. There's a line of stuff that people should feel bad about. And then everything else is just like something that is happening to you.
Doug: Whether it was a subconscious test or not, I can't speak to that per se, but I do know there are certainly people with more advanced cases of MS where their ability to function or be in a partnership is going to be negatively impacted by their condition. By all means, put that out in the open because you'd much rather find out if that's a deal breaker before you've invested a whole lot into that relationship than. It just occurred to me that you got diagnosed right around the time that MS was introduced into the West Wing storyline, and there was a lot more education about what MS even is. I mean, there have been stories about people greatly debilitated by it, like Annette Funicello and some other celebrities.
Do I have that timeline right? And did that affect you at all? Did you watch that show?
Mike: Well, that would imply that I was actually watching West Wing back then, which I wasn't. So this is one of those references that is not hitting the mark for me, at least. For me, the diagnosis came soon after my first wedding.
Doug: So you had a lot more on your mind than watching Martin Sheen.
Got it.
Mike: Yeah. I don't know what I was watching back then, but it wasn't West Wing.
Magda: We have to watch Moonlighting first.
Doug: Do you know how many seasons of that there are?
Magda: Five.
Doug: There's a lot.
Magda: There's a ton.
Doug: That's a lot of episodes.
Magda: Well, I think in our relationship, my ADHD has more of an effect on our daily life than your MS does.
Mike: Oh, yeah, very much. I mean, that's not a criticism. That's like just acknowledgment. Yeah. I try not to like overstress myself because like overheating and overstressing are potential triggers for flare ups.
Magda: Well, and I think you've made a lot of changes and I don't really want to say accommodations. I think you've just sort of cleaned up how you interact with your own body in a lot of ways. And I'm not sure that you would have if you hadn't gotten diagnosed with the MS. I'm thinking in particular about how you exercise all the time and how you've stopped eating sugar to a large degree, that kind of stuff.
Mike: This is an interesting thing that why am I like eating so little sugar?
You know, at some point I took a break from my sci-fi fantasy reading to read “The Case Against Sugar.” And so like, it certainly was not overnight.
Like it is an addictive substance. I've never gone cold turkey, but I don't crave it in the same way that I used to. And I think that many people do because it is addictive. Yeah.
Doug: I think in my limited experiences, I've cut sugar out too. And it's one of those things that are, once you've had it out of your system, you don't miss it as much, and your baseline taste adjusts to the point where if you get sugar back in your system somehow, you recoil because it's just so sweet. It's kind of like going from whole milk to skim milk, and then you drink whole milk again, and it's like, what am I drinking the sludge for?
Magda: Culturally, you were very much raised on dessert every day.
Mike: Right.
Magda: So she goes to these fancy bakeries. She goes to these fancy bakeries and picks up their leftovers from the day and then takes them to client organizations that redistribute them to people who are food insecure. And so she just ends up with these enormous gourmet cookies that are leftover. And so every time she comes over, she's like, here, you
Mike: Yeah, like, let's just say I do enjoy a good cookie. What can I say?
Magda: Well, I mean, I think it's been hard to not have these have dessert every day for you because you were raised with like a lot of really delicious desserts.
Magda: Well, now his dessert is waking up next to his abrasive wife every morning.
Mike: Oh, that's all the sweetness I need.
Magda: Affectionately abrasive.
Doug: A new abrasive wife. Really, there's cold creams for that.
Mike: I feel like this whole idea that Magda's abrasive needs to like, we need to like erase and correct because...
Doug: There's no cut and paste in podcasting, young man. It's out there.
Mike: It was a joke. It was a joke.
Doug: Well, you know what they say about jokes.
Mike: It makes a J out of oak and E. What do they say about jokes, Doug?
Doug: You just said it. I couldn't possibly compete with that. It makes a J out of oak and E. Is that what you said?
Mike: Yeah.
Doug: I'm going to stay up tonight thinking of that.
Magda: This is every minute of every day, by the way. He just looks so mild-mannered. He looks so innocent and regimented. He looks exactly like a database developer, and yet he just pops out with these weird things.
Doug : Somehow these weird fronds keep growing out between the cement. If there's anything else that you guys wanted to cover, I'm enjoying myself. This could go on for however long you guys are willing to do it. I'm just enjoying talking with you both, especially because so much of what I've heard has been so one-sided over the months. It's great to have you here to defend yourself and provide your own POV and help me understand the true dynamic that guides the light of your romance.
Mike: We can totally have conference calls or what have you going forward, whether it's podcast worthy or not.
Doug: Well, we're going to have to have the That Hot Mike Zarin series.
Mike: It's not TMZ, it's THMZ.
Doug: Yes, well, I was hoping our conversation would end with Magda wiping her eyes and sure enough.
Magda: Oh, boy.
Doug: How has this been for you, Magda, to have this conversation?
Magda: It's been totally fine. I've never, I mean, okay, so...
Doug: Mike and I belong to a very specific fraternity.
Mike: Yeah, the gray-haired bearded people.
Doug: Exactly. The only two people who've ever shared a ring with you.
Magda: We've never shared a ring.
Doug: I don't know what I meant. Never mind. I know what I meant.
But yeah, it just seems it's actually odd that there's one specific thing
that no one else on the rest of the planet can possibly understand to the level that Mike and I will. And I still don't understand anything, so...
Magda: I don't think Mike does either, so...
Doug: All right, see? Solidarity, my brother.
Mike: I will say there is an unusualness to being connected to my spouse's ex, and I'm sure it is odd to be connected to your ex's spouse.
Doug: Well, I'm grateful for that because I know a lot of people will never have that opportunity. That's why I'm so grateful to be invited to your wedding, so grateful I was able to come, have a small part in the ceremony, you know, reconnect with her family. That was a lot of fun.
The downtime was all with just the kids and Robert's girlfriend, and that was a real treat.
Magda: Well, we're glad you could come.
Doug: And I think from my perspective, not that you asked, but I do think that the overlying issue, irrespective of the venue and the catering and everything else, there was a lot of love in that room. I really enjoyed my specific vantage point to see the two of you exchange vows, and to see how the crowd embraced the two of you as a couple. So congratulations, and thanks once again. And I'm really glad the three of us have had a chance to chat. We may see each other over the holidays, I understand.
So I'm looking forward to that opportunity, too. Yeah, cool.
Magda: Yeah, I think I mean, I think we probably will end up seeing each other over the holidays, if only because I now live two hours away from your parents.
Doug: So yeah, there's a strong rate, right, which is weird.
Magda: So there's a strong likelihood that if you're seeing your parents for the holidays, you'll also swing past here.
Doug: Yeah, see, I still live 14 hours from my parents. Then you live two hours from my parents. So I'm gonna have you be their emergency contact if that's okay.
Magda: I think it has to happen. Right? I don't know.
Doug: She's a caretaker.
Mike: Yeah, well, it was a pleasure to be here and nice to get to know you a little bit better and talk a little bit about what we've been going through. That was awful.
Doug: Let Magda decide if it was awful, right?
Magda: I thought it was very sweet. It was very Mike Zarin.
Doug: And there you go. There's the differing POV that will dominate their relationship into perpetuity.
Mike: Well, thanks for having us on.
Doug: Yes, Dr. Adorable and Mrs. Abrasive.
Magda: Exactly.
Doug: And listeners, thank you for listening to Episode 20 of the When the Flames Go Up podcast with Magda Pecsenye Zarin and me, Doug French. Our guest has been Mike Zarin, who put the Zarin at the end and is now her loving husband.
When the Flames Go Up is a production of Halfway Noodles LLC, all rights reserved. Please follow us online at whentheflamesgoup.substack.com. Listen to us wherever you get your podcasts. And if you do listen to us on Apple, which the majority of you do, please leave us a review. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next week. Bye bye.